You make some good points here, but there are things that you have learned here as well.
1) Take a good hard look at summit logs, posts and TR's before you blindly go up something like Rainier with people you haven't climbed with yet. Research them well because your life is on the line with them.
2) When you and the others have established an interest with a potential climber do a number of warmups hikes/scrambles with them. Mailbox Peak, Mount Adams, and South Sister are good climbs to bond on.
3) Look at the seasons for the volcanoes. You can probably climb these volcanoes at anytime but knowing the best time will give you the best result. Though Rainier is doable, the best time for Rainier is early July before there are any crevasses on Camp Muir snowfield. Mount Hood the season is April and May. Baker is June and early July.
I have made excellent friends from this site including Gimpilator, Redwic, Natreb and Magellan. I think what has led to our success and friends is by doing lighter than Rainier stuff before jumping in the hardcore.
Both Josh and Bill definitely have there strengths and I wouldn't all around dismiss them. If Josh is up to your speed than he has improved dramatically from when I hiked with him last in April and many times before then. He would be a good companion to bring on South Sister, Maude, Seven Fingered Jack and Dragontail-Colchuck.
Bill specializes on Hood and Adams from what I have read and would be good on hikes and smaller scale snow climbs.
Hopefully everyone here has learned from their mistakes and thankfully everyone is alive. Put up some pics.
Everyone's climbing prowess is a matter of relativity: we all fall into the "echelon" somewhere.
Everdayexplorer: one day you might join up with a group who could climb circles around you and make you look like a gumby. Should we expect that they will write a TR on some website somewhere merely for the purpose of crapping on you from great heights?
This reminds me of some other trip reports I have seen submitted to summitpost over the years where facets of the community are upset with the content, but each and everytime its been fun to follow. Reading some of these critical or wreckless trip reports is what makes this site so much fun, and its great seeing how people respond to these situations when they are the target. Ultimately I hope there is some greater benefit to be found here than my entertainment though!
I sent Jon a personal message - which he never responded.
Now I intend to answer his remarks:
The report looks very straight-forward and honest. I suspect
he has since edited the report since my e-mail to him.
I agree with Jon on the majority of his report. Yes, know
your equipment... such as test stoves the night before the climb.
Jon originally claimed that I had "a tendency to wander off".
From my previous climbing experiences, I'm well aware I have
a "slow and steady" attitude. And Josh was informed of this.
I've climbed with both slow and fast climbers. Being 61 years
old and judging from these two young climbers... it seemed wise
not to hold them up with my potentially slow pace.
Why not go ahead and take a SLOW walk ahead of them? Jon didn't
object and I was not aware that I was offending him.
As fate would have it, the trail signs giving directions to Camp Muir
were not all there when we needed them. The fact that it was foggy
was a contributing factor here. I didn't take chances -
I asked around and eventually fell in with another group led
by an experienced guide. Unknown to me and my partners,
we almost DID meet up... just before this "experienced" guide took a wrong path.
I have no objection to the condition of the Muir Snowfield. Several
cramponless hikers were climbing it. I try to stay within
sight of others and take no chances. I always follow the
track of others when possible - extra insurance that if there
is there is a hidden crevasse in my path - somebody would fall in before me.
Throughout this walk up, I assumed my partners where behind me,
they assumed I was ahead of them. They climbed fast, I climbed
slow.
Once at Camp Muir, Jon and I met up. He claimed he got there
two hours before me. Josh disputes this. The time difference has not yet be resolved. Futurmore, Jon
claimed I was an "out of shape" climber. (Jon has since
edited out that statement.)
Based on what Jon KNEW that evening, he probably made the right
decision. Of course, I was exhausted, very hoarse, didn't feel
like talking until my throat recovered some.
What more - still more climbers who started at same time I did,
where arriving at Camp Muir an hour after me. I was not the fastest nor was I the slowest. What more, even the slower climbers made the summit the next day.
What can I say? I arrived at camp in questionable condition, left
me considering my own abilities. I still had good strong legs but
was very low in body energy reserves. I promptly prepared
my supper and ate ASAP. There was only a mere 5 hours before the
11PM summit start. Could I recover in time? Since we didn't
try, I will never know. Jon never asked how I felt about my abilities.
Camp Muir was colder than anything I experienced on any of my climbing
adventures - in the mid-30's.
I am no stranger to cold weather, I grew up playing in the snow at 20 below
and delivered newspapers in deep snow and sub-zero weather. It's sure
is murder when the chill factor is added in and the roads aren't plowed!
Jon eventually got the glacier conditions from the ranger and decided
not to go. Did I care? I don't take chances. ANY climb is a fun
climb, summit or no summit! I cancelled solo climbs before and am
willing to do it again.
Since I bought a summit permit and came all this way, why not at least
TRY? We can always turn back if conditions got too dangerous. Why
not at least, hike around Catheral Rocks for a look? I think Jon
thought I meant TONIGHT. Again mis-communtications got in the way.
As for melting ice for drinking water - I never had to do this before.
All too many times, I never drank enough water. I'm wiser now.
Jon and I melted ice together a nice experience. Jon had a Jet-boil
kit while I had a pot and small burner which I bought on e-bay for $10.
It was interesting to compare the speed of the different systems. Jon's
Jet-Boil melted a smaller amount of water and had to be emptied more
often. My system held three times more water and seemly melted ice
slower. I would say the Jet-Boil is twice as fast overall. And yes
I DID light and test my burner before the climb.
Jon says my lighter didn't work... well yes and no. I had two lighters,
one which I threw in without testing. The 2nd which I was more familiar
with, worked fine.
Also, the wind gusts sometimes blew out my flame. More lessons learned!
As for the going down criticism... wait a minute! Nobody informed me
that we were going down with others. I assumed it was just me and
my two partners. I waited... and could see they were packed. Clearly
they would follow after me once I started. I always try not to
rush myself when going down - especially at the beginning and at the
highest, riskiest parts.
I took my time and care. With my GPS, I followed the EXACT same path
that I came up. Of course, with ice and the thin layer of snow on ice
our previous tracks were rarely there. I do not JUMP any crevasses
and always step over them with great care - often planting my ice
axe on the other side beforehand.
The top part of the glacier was pretty much melted down to the bare ice.
I didn't see the relatively level glacier as dangerous nor risky.
Any fall on the ice would have resulted in a very short slide - maybe
2-3 feet. Sandy residue covered a lot of the ice.
The ice was highly fractored and majority of the few crevasses were less than a foot wide.
Jon must have thought otherwise. Prob, within 15 minutes we were
out of sight - by a rock pile... then I was over the curve of the
glacier, so we didn't see each other for an hour. I took my
time, had time to pause and change out of my hot clothing and sit around waiting for my partners to catch up.
As for Jon's account of the crampons problems with Josh. I wasn't
with them at the time. I prob would have given Josh my own crampons
and walked down on my own boots. Crampons seemed to make things a
little easier and a little safer. But the glacier was clearly hikeable without crampons.
And like all my previous climbs, I'm pretty sure-footed going down
steep rocks and glaciers. I more than hold my own against younger
men. But once down on level ground, the younger people quickly pick
up the pace - leaving me behind. I have to RUN to keep pace.
Often times, I am with low energy at that point - stumble more. So
I pace myself. Overall, I'm trying to take care of myself and not be a burden to others.
And lastly, Jon claimed I was a risk since I was "unable to hear rope commands".
He appears to have edited this out since.
What can I say? They let deaf people drive, don't they? Deaf people
as a rule are more observant and safer drivers.
True, I might not hear rockfalls, avalances or noise of other climbers falling.
So, in my situation, I should not be the lead climber. Any sudden action
by the climber in front of me would alert me to something amiss.
Like any adventure - we strive for perfectly safe fun. Still things go
wrong - they always do. Be prepared and take it on the chin.
And at the summary of Jon report, I agree with him. Jon probably doesn't know
this, but I took two certified mountain climbing courses and climbed with guides
before. Like Jon, I don't have any avalance training or crevasse rescue training.
Like Jon, I too, practiced crevasse rescue and pussiking up the rafters in my
garage.
I agree with Jon, the least-likely needed equipment is packed at the bottom of the pack. Who doesn't know this?
EVERYBODY in our group was cordinal, tactful and polite THROUGHOUT the climb. I've been with groups where tempers have flared. Apparently, Jon wanted to express his feelings afterwards - which is good.
These are my public thoughts. My private thoughts on Bill's lengthy comment have already been sent to him.
1) The report is straight forward and honest, period, end of story. Some of my more blunt, but truthful, opinions where in a thread that has now been deleted because the originating member is no longer part of SummitPost. It is a cowardice act to edit the substance of words already spoken and I would much rather apologize than retract opinions already voiced. In this case I have neither apologized for nor retracted a single word I have said.
2) While in many other facets of life it is better to be lucky than good, in the mountains that does not fly. Sure the guided climbers with rented crampons and axes made the summit under the careful supervision of a AMGA certified guide, but should they have? Just because you summited doesn't mean that you should have summited.
3) On a personal note. I have taken formal skills courses through AAI. I have formal instruction in crevasse rescue including "live" practice. I read back issues of Accidents in North American Mountaineering and I am resolved to never grace those pages.
The drama associated with this TR has gone too far and frankly I am tired of it. A TR is simply the recounting of one's trip. I wrote my experience and what others decide to take away from my experience is up to them.
billisfree - Aug 31, 2009 5:32 pm - Hasn't voted
Rather SarcasticHi Jon, I'm "Deaf Bill"
You sure have me smarting over the matter.
I'll give this thing thought before I open my mouth.
vancouver islander - Aug 31, 2009 10:07 pm - Voted 5/10
I think you should.......shit on people in private before you do so here.
Your report has limited value as beta and is generally offensive in its tone. I can't think why you bothered writing it.
EastKing - Aug 31, 2009 11:15 pm - Hasn't voted
Lots of Learning Lessons here...You make some good points here, but there are things that you have learned here as well.
1) Take a good hard look at summit logs, posts and TR's before you blindly go up something like Rainier with people you haven't climbed with yet. Research them well because your life is on the line with them.
2) When you and the others have established an interest with a potential climber do a number of warmups hikes/scrambles with them. Mailbox Peak, Mount Adams, and South Sister are good climbs to bond on.
3) Look at the seasons for the volcanoes. You can probably climb these volcanoes at anytime but knowing the best time will give you the best result. Though Rainier is doable, the best time for Rainier is early July before there are any crevasses on Camp Muir snowfield. Mount Hood the season is April and May. Baker is June and early July.
I have made excellent friends from this site including Gimpilator, Redwic, Natreb and Magellan. I think what has led to our success and friends is by doing lighter than Rainier stuff before jumping in the hardcore.
Both Josh and Bill definitely have there strengths and I wouldn't all around dismiss them. If Josh is up to your speed than he has improved dramatically from when I hiked with him last in April and many times before then. He would be a good companion to bring on South Sister, Maude, Seven Fingered Jack and Dragontail-Colchuck.
Bill specializes on Hood and Adams from what I have read and would be good on hikes and smaller scale snow climbs.
Hopefully everyone here has learned from their mistakes and thankfully everyone is alive. Put up some pics.
Klenke - Aug 31, 2009 11:53 pm - Voted 5/10
RelativityI'm with Vancouver Islander on this one.
Everyone's climbing prowess is a matter of relativity: we all fall into the "echelon" somewhere.
Everdayexplorer: one day you might join up with a group who could climb circles around you and make you look like a gumby. Should we expect that they will write a TR on some website somewhere merely for the purpose of crapping on you from great heights?
calebEOC - Sep 2, 2009 3:27 pm - Voted 10/10
I have kind of enjoyed this little bit of dramaThis reminds me of some other trip reports I have seen submitted to summitpost over the years where facets of the community are upset with the content, but each and everytime its been fun to follow. Reading some of these critical or wreckless trip reports is what makes this site so much fun, and its great seeing how people respond to these situations when they are the target. Ultimately I hope there is some greater benefit to be found here than my entertainment though!
billisfree - Sep 4, 2009 9:58 pm - Hasn't voted
Unfair criticism...In reply to Jon's post:
I sent Jon a personal message - which he never responded.
Now I intend to answer his remarks:
The report looks very straight-forward and honest. I suspect
he has since edited the report since my e-mail to him.
I agree with Jon on the majority of his report. Yes, know
your equipment... such as test stoves the night before the climb.
Jon originally claimed that I had "a tendency to wander off".
From my previous climbing experiences, I'm well aware I have
a "slow and steady" attitude. And Josh was informed of this.
I've climbed with both slow and fast climbers. Being 61 years
old and judging from these two young climbers... it seemed wise
not to hold them up with my potentially slow pace.
Why not go ahead and take a SLOW walk ahead of them? Jon didn't
object and I was not aware that I was offending him.
Did I go wrong here?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
As fate would have it, the trail signs giving directions to Camp Muir
were not all there when we needed them. The fact that it was foggy
was a contributing factor here. I didn't take chances -
I asked around and eventually fell in with another group led
by an experienced guide. Unknown to me and my partners,
we almost DID meet up... just before this "experienced" guide took a wrong path.
Did I go wrong here?
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no objection to the condition of the Muir Snowfield. Several
cramponless hikers were climbing it. I try to stay within
sight of others and take no chances. I always follow the
track of others when possible - extra insurance that if there
is there is a hidden crevasse in my path - somebody would fall in before me.
Throughout this walk up, I assumed my partners where behind me,
they assumed I was ahead of them. They climbed fast, I climbed
slow.
Once at Camp Muir, Jon and I met up. He claimed he got there
two hours before me. Josh disputes this. The time difference has not yet be resolved. Futurmore, Jon
claimed I was an "out of shape" climber. (Jon has since
edited out that statement.)
Based on what Jon KNEW that evening, he probably made the right
decision. Of course, I was exhausted, very hoarse, didn't feel
like talking until my throat recovered some.
What more - still more climbers who started at same time I did,
where arriving at Camp Muir an hour after me. I was not the fastest nor was I the slowest. What more, even the slower climbers made the summit the next day.
What can I say? I arrived at camp in questionable condition, left
me considering my own abilities. I still had good strong legs but
was very low in body energy reserves. I promptly prepared
my supper and ate ASAP. There was only a mere 5 hours before the
11PM summit start. Could I recover in time? Since we didn't
try, I will never know. Jon never asked how I felt about my abilities.
Did I do wrong?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Camp Muir was colder than anything I experienced on any of my climbing
adventures - in the mid-30's.
I am no stranger to cold weather, I grew up playing in the snow at 20 below
and delivered newspapers in deep snow and sub-zero weather. It's sure
is murder when the chill factor is added in and the roads aren't plowed!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon eventually got the glacier conditions from the ranger and decided
not to go. Did I care? I don't take chances. ANY climb is a fun
climb, summit or no summit! I cancelled solo climbs before and am
willing to do it again.
Since I bought a summit permit and came all this way, why not at least
TRY? We can always turn back if conditions got too dangerous. Why
not at least, hike around Catheral Rocks for a look? I think Jon
thought I meant TONIGHT. Again mis-communtications got in the way.
Did I do wrong?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for melting ice for drinking water - I never had to do this before.
All too many times, I never drank enough water. I'm wiser now.
Jon and I melted ice together a nice experience. Jon had a Jet-boil
kit while I had a pot and small burner which I bought on e-bay for $10.
It was interesting to compare the speed of the different systems. Jon's
Jet-Boil melted a smaller amount of water and had to be emptied more
often. My system held three times more water and seemly melted ice
slower. I would say the Jet-Boil is twice as fast overall. And yes
I DID light and test my burner before the climb.
Jon says my lighter didn't work... well yes and no. I had two lighters,
one which I threw in without testing. The 2nd which I was more familiar
with, worked fine.
Also, the wind gusts sometimes blew out my flame. More lessons learned!
Jet-Boil has my vote - costy toy, tho.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the going down criticism... wait a minute! Nobody informed me
that we were going down with others. I assumed it was just me and
my two partners. I waited... and could see they were packed. Clearly
they would follow after me once I started. I always try not to
rush myself when going down - especially at the beginning and at the
highest, riskiest parts.
I took my time and care. With my GPS, I followed the EXACT same path
that I came up. Of course, with ice and the thin layer of snow on ice
our previous tracks were rarely there. I do not JUMP any crevasses
and always step over them with great care - often planting my ice
axe on the other side beforehand.
The top part of the glacier was pretty much melted down to the bare ice.
I didn't see the relatively level glacier as dangerous nor risky.
Any fall on the ice would have resulted in a very short slide - maybe
2-3 feet. Sandy residue covered a lot of the ice.
The ice was highly fractored and majority of the few crevasses were less than a foot wide.
Jon must have thought otherwise. Prob, within 15 minutes we were
out of sight - by a rock pile... then I was over the curve of the
glacier, so we didn't see each other for an hour. I took my
time, had time to pause and change out of my hot clothing and sit around waiting for my partners to catch up.
If Jon was worried - I didn't know - sorry.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for Jon's account of the crampons problems with Josh. I wasn't
with them at the time. I prob would have given Josh my own crampons
and walked down on my own boots. Crampons seemed to make things a
little easier and a little safer. But the glacier was clearly hikeable without crampons.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And like all my previous climbs, I'm pretty sure-footed going down
steep rocks and glaciers. I more than hold my own against younger
men. But once down on level ground, the younger people quickly pick
up the pace - leaving me behind. I have to RUN to keep pace.
Often times, I am with low energy at that point - stumble more. So
I pace myself. Overall, I'm trying to take care of myself and not be a burden to others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And lastly, Jon claimed I was a risk since I was "unable to hear rope commands".
He appears to have edited this out since.
What can I say? They let deaf people drive, don't they? Deaf people
as a rule are more observant and safer drivers.
True, I might not hear rockfalls, avalances or noise of other climbers falling.
So, in my situation, I should not be the lead climber. Any sudden action
by the climber in front of me would alert me to something amiss.
Like any adventure - we strive for perfectly safe fun. Still things go
wrong - they always do. Be prepared and take it on the chin.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And at the summary of Jon report, I agree with him. Jon probably doesn't know
this, but I took two certified mountain climbing courses and climbed with guides
before. Like Jon, I don't have any avalance training or crevasse rescue training.
Like Jon, I too, practiced crevasse rescue and pussiking up the rafters in my
garage.
I agree with Jon, the least-likely needed equipment is packed at the bottom of the pack. Who doesn't know this?
EVERYBODY in our group was cordinal, tactful and polite THROUGHOUT the climb. I've been with groups where tempers have flared. Apparently, Jon wanted to express his feelings afterwards - which is good.
The REAL learning comes through experience.
EverydayExplorer - Sep 6, 2009 11:00 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Unfair criticism...These are my public thoughts. My private thoughts on Bill's lengthy comment have already been sent to him.
1) The report is straight forward and honest, period, end of story. Some of my more blunt, but truthful, opinions where in a thread that has now been deleted because the originating member is no longer part of SummitPost. It is a cowardice act to edit the substance of words already spoken and I would much rather apologize than retract opinions already voiced. In this case I have neither apologized for nor retracted a single word I have said.
2) While in many other facets of life it is better to be lucky than good, in the mountains that does not fly. Sure the guided climbers with rented crampons and axes made the summit under the careful supervision of a AMGA certified guide, but should they have? Just because you summited doesn't mean that you should have summited.
3) On a personal note. I have taken formal skills courses through AAI. I have formal instruction in crevasse rescue including "live" practice. I read back issues of Accidents in North American Mountaineering and I am resolved to never grace those pages.
The drama associated with this TR has gone too far and frankly I am tired of it. A TR is simply the recounting of one's trip. I wrote my experience and what others decide to take away from my experience is up to them.
Cascade Scrambler - Feb 16, 2010 9:23 pm - Voted 10/10
A lesson lived is a lesson learnedYour trip report may save someone in the future from taking the same trip you did. With that in mind, I appreciate your report and your honesty.