What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Experience comes from getting into bad situations. The key is to get the experience without getting killed in the process. I had similar experiences as yours when I was a 16-year novice old climber. I am lucky to be alive, and so are you. Learn and move on.
Thank you for providing your account. IF you could summarize your takeaways what would they be?
1. Would you start on a commited traverse like this again when it was already raining at the trailhead?
2. After summiting the first peak, in retrospect, if you had just descended the route you went up, without continuing the traverse, would that likely have prevented being iced in up high at the saddle?
3. When you were at the saddle, I realize there is a danger of lightning, but not as bad as being on an open summit. Do you think you would have been better off just hunkering down without going into the couloir? Did you have enough warm clothes to just to hunker down? Basically I think you are very lucky to not have taken a fatal fall in the couloir; I would tend to think the risk of lightning was lower than the risk of the couloir (I realize this is subjective assessment of relative risks that is why I am asking for you thoughts).
I am just trying to get sense of what I can learn from this situation, from you who lived it.
Thanks again for the report and I am glad you safe.
1) It was raining at 2 in the morning. Which we expected because the weather report called for it. It was a clear day when the sun came up. We knew weather might roll in after 11 or 12 as usual in Colorado.
2) If we descended the regular route it would of been both longer and the descent from the saddle is quite steep added the snow. It would of been safer, that's for sure. We should of done that, but it was clear weather until the middle of the traverse.
3) It would of been safer to not go down the couloir. Sadly, we did not find that out until we climbed ourself into a trap. That's one of the big mistakes we made. That and seperating. I did have many layers on and emergency equipment. It didnt help that my feet and hands were soaked though. That's what cost me and kept me cold. It's hard to hear the noice of lightning and not be afraid that high up. That was our mistake. Next time we can learn from these things. That's what counts. I have finally moved past this and continued my climbing thank God. Thank you all of you for your comments. As I'm very happy to have lived through this. It really does open your eyes up.
Hopefully you have learned to respect the mountains and the potential dangers they pose. Demonstrate that respect by getting proper training and experience before doing anything like this *ever* again. Thankfully, you don't have the death or injury of a rescuer on your conscience.
Already you are sounding like you are taking this way too lightly. You are "finally past this and have continued your climbing???!!!!" Dude, you and your friend almost DIED less than a month ago and endangered countless other people in the process. This happened because you lacked skills, experience, judgment and knowledge. You need to stop and SERIOUSLY reflect on this and map out and follow a process to acquire the skills and experience to SAFELY and RESPONSIBLY take on challenges like this in the future. NOT shrug your shoulders, say "whew!" and keep on the same course.
Safe and responsible fast and light climbing is the result of years of experience and skills development. One of the most important principles is the willingness to turn around if you are not prepared for the conditions you encounter or are likely to encounter on any given day.
Ok. I realize all of that. First of all, I'm not shrugging my shoulders. This left me in a emotional wreck. Of crying, not being able to sleep for a couple of days. This dragged me down in every way. I was even thinking about therapy. I really don't appreciatte you walking all over this issue when you have absolutely no idea how I felt or how experienced I am. Especially when you have not gone through this specific situation. I had the experience for it. Do you think I just did this out of no where? You have no room to talk. Absolutely none. My Saviour had this happen to me for a reason. I can't dwell on the past my whole life. I have to eventually move past it.
And you really think I could of just turned around?? Oh ya, let me go climb back to the summit and get struck by lightning. Have you read this full TR at all?There is a difference between constructive critsism and just basically downing what I did. I could barely even handle this. You think I can handle you saying this when you have no idea where im coming from? There comes a time standing up for yourself especially when it comes to climbing. Especially by just almost downing this whole situation. You have absolutely no idea about this whole thing. NONE.
This is for reading purposes and for people to find out what actually can happen. Maybe I shouldn't of posted this. Because people like you critsize me, and think I'm just a lame kid that does not know what he is doing. It makes me sad to hear stuff like this to me or others. Yes, I have alot to learn but I had experience for this climb.
The rescuers told me personally that I did everything right. I brought extra layers, 3 kinds of fire starters, compass, map, guidebook, rope, chalk, emergency blanket, everything. The only thing I did not bring was an ice axe and crampons. Which I learned from! and will bring next time. So please get your comments of "This happened because you lacked skills, experience, judgment and knowledge." out!! As i know multiple sources of even Everest summiters on the rescue team that told me I did everything right except not bringing the ice axe and crampons. They are WAY more reliable sources for me then your "advice". They actually have an idea of the situation and were there.
Yes, there are things I learned from this. There are things I could of done better. But wow, I just don't apprecaite this kind of crtisizm and assumptions you make when you don't know any details except this small TR. . . .It just makes thing's harder for me. I don't mean to offend you. But that did just make me a little upset reading that.
I agree with what Noah said and can confirm, being the other climber, that SAR considered us "lucky" but stated that we did do the right things!!
I disagree that we lacked skills, experience, judgment, and knowledge. We made TWO bad judgments - weather moves fast, and bringing ice axe/crampons on a snow-free route. That's all that went wrong, when you really look at things.
My trip report, with is not posted here, obviously differs after we separated, but understand that after I fell, I continued downwards on rock in a SAFE manner for a few thousand feet before eventually becoming cliffed out. Even at that point, I was not worried for MY safety, knowing that I was prepared for the night if necessary. Yes I know that anything regarding the deployment of SAR is a dangerous business, but I had safely gotten myself to a safer altitude in a calm manner consistent with the safest route off of the mountain in my situation. It was the best I could do. YES IS SCREWED UP to begin with, but as I stated in my trip report, after my screw up, I did the right thing. That's worth some merit.
Sure, we didn't have the correct gear, which we learned from, and we made a bad weather decision. You live in Colorado, you know the weather changes FAST. I know a climber who was on Pyramid, and even his TR noted how fast this storm moved.
We didn't shrug our shoulders and say "whew" as you put it, but have significantly changed our climbing habits. I will always carry an ice axe even on routes that are 100% snow free in case I am forced to move into snow.
Also, one thing I will thoroughly disagree with you on is the willingness to turn around when not prepared for conditions encountered/likely to encounter. Understand that the ENTIRE climb of Maroon Peak was done SAFELY and WELL WITHIN OUR EXPERIENCE. Weather from the summit looked fine. When the weather did move in, we were in a situation where moving onwards was safer than turning around. YES, those situations DO EXIST! And for the record, I've turned around on many occasions myself... on both hard and easy peaks.
And just out of curiosity, what good is it to stop climbing after something like this? We learned our lesson, dwelling on it won't help a bit. I plan on getting back to some easier climbing this week, and plan on being much more cautious with weather and in what I bring.
Ok, so I have to ask you two, and I'm asking this calmly, NOT angrily - these are serious:
1) What would you have done differently in our position?
2) Now that this is all said and done and we learned our lesson (and no doubt we learned our lesson, and we know we learned it the hard way), why are we being lectured again? Isn't coming this close to dying and being talked to by search and rescue enough to teach us a lesson? It was for me...
Also, I want to add that we're not posting this trying to brag and show off about what we survived. No, I posted this more as a "what not to do" kind of a think - a sort of "hey - here's a reminder to be careful!" kind of a post - no bragging intended at ALL.
And we're not defensive because we don't want the advice, we're defensive because WE NEARLY FREAKING DIED! We've been criticized for taking this too lightly - and we're getting defensive because of how HEAVILY we've taken this. The LAST thing I wanted to read today was someone else trying to a teach me a lesson. Nearly dying was enough for me, thanks.
As said by one "Some would criticize you; if not for the disclaimer. But I believe this is primarily a coping mechanism used to make people believe that they are somehow above having this happen to them (that they are somehow too smart or skilled). Something like this could happen to anyone at some point in life. We are not in control EVER in my opinion." I just don't get it. The only mistakes we made was:
1) Not bringing our Ice Axe and Crampons (which almost all climbers wont when they see absolutely no snow on there route)
2) Going down that snow underneath a Moat in fear of the lightning(Which was really a smart option to get away from it but it got us stuck)
3) Seperating. (Which is the worst mistake we made)
I just don't get your guy's perspective of we are inexperienced, no knowledge or whatever he said. When this could of happened to any climber of any level! We were told we made the best descisions except seperating. The Rescue team told us they wished alot of climbers that were stuck followed what we did. That's saying alot. I accept critisizm. And am teachable when it comes to all aspects of life. But what he said makes absolutely no sense. A bit of exageration I say. And in my opinion I think it was out of line. So please understand where im coming from.
DEAL. Thats exactly what you did. You dealt with it. Congrats.
An old Nepalese saying:
If you face your fears, and learn to manage them, you grow spiritually. Climb On!
They chewed me up and spit me out after I'd just moved to Colorado years ago when some friends and I tried what we thought was a simple multi-day loop hike. I'm still amazed how quickly my situation from "okay" to "oh, no!" and bravado turned to prayer. Glad you made it out to tell the story and to confirm the Bells deserve their reputation.
Glad you guys made it off the mountain without serious injury. If you had hunkered down above the chute and waited out the worst of the storm, do you think you would have been better off returning to the summit and then returning the way you came? Also I was wondering what was the route you guys had chosen rated as?
I think that yes, waiting it out and returning the way we came would have been the smartest idea. The reason we didn't is because this storm was taking it's precious time to leave. I'm not the best with time, but I'd say it took at least 90 minutes, maybe closer to 120 for the snow to stop and the heavy cloud cover to leave. It's hard to be willing to sit and wait that out, but would have been the best decision. Had I not slipped on the snow and been separated, that's what we both would have done. In the end, that is what Noah did. Meanwhile, I ended up making my own route down North Maroon.
And the route from South to North is rated class 4 IF you're good at route finding - however it is a class 5 if you're not careful. South Maroon Peak is a standard class 3.
noahs213 - Oct 28, 2010 12:03 am - Hasn't voted
Re: whewhttp://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
Sierra Ledge Rat - Aug 9, 2009 5:21 pm - Voted 10/10
Experience...What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Experience comes from getting into bad situations. The key is to get the experience without getting killed in the process. I had similar experiences as yours when I was a 16-year novice old climber. I am lucky to be alive, and so are you. Learn and move on.
noahs213 - Oct 28, 2010 12:02 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Experience...http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
triyoda - Aug 9, 2009 5:56 pm - Hasn't voted
Lessons learned?Thank you for providing your account. IF you could summarize your takeaways what would they be?
1. Would you start on a commited traverse like this again when it was already raining at the trailhead?
2. After summiting the first peak, in retrospect, if you had just descended the route you went up, without continuing the traverse, would that likely have prevented being iced in up high at the saddle?
3. When you were at the saddle, I realize there is a danger of lightning, but not as bad as being on an open summit. Do you think you would have been better off just hunkering down without going into the couloir? Did you have enough warm clothes to just to hunker down? Basically I think you are very lucky to not have taken a fatal fall in the couloir; I would tend to think the risk of lightning was lower than the risk of the couloir (I realize this is subjective assessment of relative risks that is why I am asking for you thoughts).
I am just trying to get sense of what I can learn from this situation, from you who lived it.
Thanks again for the report and I am glad you safe.
noahs213 - Aug 9, 2009 7:32 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Lessons learned?1) It was raining at 2 in the morning. Which we expected because the weather report called for it. It was a clear day when the sun came up. We knew weather might roll in after 11 or 12 as usual in Colorado.
2) If we descended the regular route it would of been both longer and the descent from the saddle is quite steep added the snow. It would of been safer, that's for sure. We should of done that, but it was clear weather until the middle of the traverse.
3) It would of been safer to not go down the couloir. Sadly, we did not find that out until we climbed ourself into a trap. That's one of the big mistakes we made. That and seperating. I did have many layers on and emergency equipment. It didnt help that my feet and hands were soaked though. That's what cost me and kept me cold. It's hard to hear the noice of lightning and not be afraid that high up. That was our mistake. Next time we can learn from these things. That's what counts. I have finally moved past this and continued my climbing thank God. Thank you all of you for your comments. As I'm very happy to have lived through this. It really does open your eyes up.
noahs213 - Oct 28, 2010 12:02 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Lessons learned?http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
KevinCraig - Aug 9, 2009 10:13 pm - Hasn't voted
You lived, so learnHopefully you have learned to respect the mountains and the potential dangers they pose. Demonstrate that respect by getting proper training and experience before doing anything like this *ever* again. Thankfully, you don't have the death or injury of a rescuer on your conscience.
Already you are sounding like you are taking this way too lightly. You are "finally past this and have continued your climbing???!!!!" Dude, you and your friend almost DIED less than a month ago and endangered countless other people in the process. This happened because you lacked skills, experience, judgment and knowledge. You need to stop and SERIOUSLY reflect on this and map out and follow a process to acquire the skills and experience to SAFELY and RESPONSIBLY take on challenges like this in the future. NOT shrug your shoulders, say "whew!" and keep on the same course.
Safe and responsible fast and light climbing is the result of years of experience and skills development. One of the most important principles is the willingness to turn around if you are not prepared for the conditions you encounter or are likely to encounter on any given day.
noahs213 - Aug 9, 2009 11:37 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: You lived, so learnOk. I realize all of that. First of all, I'm not shrugging my shoulders. This left me in a emotional wreck. Of crying, not being able to sleep for a couple of days. This dragged me down in every way. I was even thinking about therapy. I really don't appreciatte you walking all over this issue when you have absolutely no idea how I felt or how experienced I am. Especially when you have not gone through this specific situation. I had the experience for it. Do you think I just did this out of no where? You have no room to talk. Absolutely none. My Saviour had this happen to me for a reason. I can't dwell on the past my whole life. I have to eventually move past it.
And you really think I could of just turned around?? Oh ya, let me go climb back to the summit and get struck by lightning. Have you read this full TR at all?There is a difference between constructive critsism and just basically downing what I did. I could barely even handle this. You think I can handle you saying this when you have no idea where im coming from? There comes a time standing up for yourself especially when it comes to climbing. Especially by just almost downing this whole situation. You have absolutely no idea about this whole thing. NONE.
This is for reading purposes and for people to find out what actually can happen. Maybe I shouldn't of posted this. Because people like you critsize me, and think I'm just a lame kid that does not know what he is doing. It makes me sad to hear stuff like this to me or others. Yes, I have alot to learn but I had experience for this climb.
The rescuers told me personally that I did everything right. I brought extra layers, 3 kinds of fire starters, compass, map, guidebook, rope, chalk, emergency blanket, everything. The only thing I did not bring was an ice axe and crampons. Which I learned from! and will bring next time. So please get your comments of "This happened because you lacked skills, experience, judgment and knowledge." out!! As i know multiple sources of even Everest summiters on the rescue team that told me I did everything right except not bringing the ice axe and crampons. They are WAY more reliable sources for me then your "advice". They actually have an idea of the situation and were there.
Yes, there are things I learned from this. There are things I could of done better. But wow, I just don't apprecaite this kind of crtisizm and assumptions you make when you don't know any details except this small TR. . . .It just makes thing's harder for me. I don't mean to offend you. But that did just make me a little upset reading that.
Kevin8020 - Aug 10, 2009 12:07 am - Hasn't voted
Re: You lived, so learnI agree with what Noah said and can confirm, being the other climber, that SAR considered us "lucky" but stated that we did do the right things!!
I disagree that we lacked skills, experience, judgment, and knowledge. We made TWO bad judgments - weather moves fast, and bringing ice axe/crampons on a snow-free route. That's all that went wrong, when you really look at things.
My trip report, with is not posted here, obviously differs after we separated, but understand that after I fell, I continued downwards on rock in a SAFE manner for a few thousand feet before eventually becoming cliffed out. Even at that point, I was not worried for MY safety, knowing that I was prepared for the night if necessary. Yes I know that anything regarding the deployment of SAR is a dangerous business, but I had safely gotten myself to a safer altitude in a calm manner consistent with the safest route off of the mountain in my situation. It was the best I could do. YES IS SCREWED UP to begin with, but as I stated in my trip report, after my screw up, I did the right thing. That's worth some merit.
Sure, we didn't have the correct gear, which we learned from, and we made a bad weather decision. You live in Colorado, you know the weather changes FAST. I know a climber who was on Pyramid, and even his TR noted how fast this storm moved.
We didn't shrug our shoulders and say "whew" as you put it, but have significantly changed our climbing habits. I will always carry an ice axe even on routes that are 100% snow free in case I am forced to move into snow.
Also, one thing I will thoroughly disagree with you on is the willingness to turn around when not prepared for conditions encountered/likely to encounter. Understand that the ENTIRE climb of Maroon Peak was done SAFELY and WELL WITHIN OUR EXPERIENCE. Weather from the summit looked fine. When the weather did move in, we were in a situation where moving onwards was safer than turning around. YES, those situations DO EXIST! And for the record, I've turned around on many occasions myself... on both hard and easy peaks.
And just out of curiosity, what good is it to stop climbing after something like this? We learned our lesson, dwelling on it won't help a bit. I plan on getting back to some easier climbing this week, and plan on being much more cautious with weather and in what I bring.
Kevin8020 - Aug 10, 2009 1:45 am - Hasn't voted
Re: You lived, so learnOk, so I have to ask you two, and I'm asking this calmly, NOT angrily - these are serious:
1) What would you have done differently in our position?
2) Now that this is all said and done and we learned our lesson (and no doubt we learned our lesson, and we know we learned it the hard way), why are we being lectured again? Isn't coming this close to dying and being talked to by search and rescue enough to teach us a lesson? It was for me...
Also, I want to add that we're not posting this trying to brag and show off about what we survived. No, I posted this more as a "what not to do" kind of a think - a sort of "hey - here's a reminder to be careful!" kind of a post - no bragging intended at ALL.
And we're not defensive because we don't want the advice, we're defensive because WE NEARLY FREAKING DIED! We've been criticized for taking this too lightly - and we're getting defensive because of how HEAVILY we've taken this. The LAST thing I wanted to read today was someone else trying to a teach me a lesson. Nearly dying was enough for me, thanks.
noahs213 - Aug 10, 2009 1:55 am - Hasn't voted
Re: You lived, so learnAs said by one "Some would criticize you; if not for the disclaimer. But I believe this is primarily a coping mechanism used to make people believe that they are somehow above having this happen to them (that they are somehow too smart or skilled). Something like this could happen to anyone at some point in life. We are not in control EVER in my opinion." I just don't get it. The only mistakes we made was:
1) Not bringing our Ice Axe and Crampons (which almost all climbers wont when they see absolutely no snow on there route)
2) Going down that snow underneath a Moat in fear of the lightning(Which was really a smart option to get away from it but it got us stuck)
3) Seperating. (Which is the worst mistake we made)
I just don't get your guy's perspective of we are inexperienced, no knowledge or whatever he said. When this could of happened to any climber of any level! We were told we made the best descisions except seperating. The Rescue team told us they wished alot of climbers that were stuck followed what we did. That's saying alot. I accept critisizm. And am teachable when it comes to all aspects of life. But what he said makes absolutely no sense. A bit of exageration I say. And in my opinion I think it was out of line. So please understand where im coming from.
noahs213 - Oct 27, 2010 11:51 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: You lived, so learnhttp://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
Foxy Long Bottoms - Aug 10, 2009 1:06 am - Voted 10/10
WOW!What a crazy day. I'm glad you guys are ok. You have a great story to tell now.
noahs213 - Oct 28, 2010 12:01 am - Hasn't voted
Re: WOW!http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
kpthomson - Aug 10, 2009 12:53 pm - Hasn't voted
Whats the Mountaineer saying...DEAL. Thats exactly what you did. You dealt with it. Congrats.
An old Nepalese saying:
If you face your fears, and learn to manage them, you grow spiritually. Climb On!
noahs213 - Oct 28, 2010 12:01 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Whats the Mountaineer saying...http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
T Mac - Aug 10, 2009 1:17 pm - Voted 10/10
The BellsThey chewed me up and spit me out after I'd just moved to Colorado years ago when some friends and I tried what we thought was a simple multi-day loop hike. I'm still amazed how quickly my situation from "okay" to "oh, no!" and bravado turned to prayer. Glad you made it out to tell the story and to confirm the Bells deserve their reputation.
noahs213 - Oct 28, 2010 12:01 am - Hasn't voted
Re: The Bellshttp://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=674905&confirm_post=12
EastcoastMike - Aug 10, 2009 3:22 pm - Voted 10/10
?sGlad you guys made it off the mountain without serious injury. If you had hunkered down above the chute and waited out the worst of the storm, do you think you would have been better off returning to the summit and then returning the way you came? Also I was wondering what was the route you guys had chosen rated as?
Kevin8020 - Aug 10, 2009 3:45 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: ?sI think that yes, waiting it out and returning the way we came would have been the smartest idea. The reason we didn't is because this storm was taking it's precious time to leave. I'm not the best with time, but I'd say it took at least 90 minutes, maybe closer to 120 for the snow to stop and the heavy cloud cover to leave. It's hard to be willing to sit and wait that out, but would have been the best decision. Had I not slipped on the snow and been separated, that's what we both would have done. In the end, that is what Noah did. Meanwhile, I ended up making my own route down North Maroon.
And the route from South to North is rated class 4 IF you're good at route finding - however it is a class 5 if you're not careful. South Maroon Peak is a standard class 3.