MtnHermit wrote:

rhyang wrote:I agree with the spirit of your post, and the ideals you espouse. However, I am merely suggesting that the theory and practice sometimes diverge in ways you may not be aware of, and that having an additional tool in those situations is very handy.

That's the real issue, the people on this forum aren't going to get lost, it's the "James Kim's" of the world that ignore the closed sign's, ignore the ever deepening snow on the road and press on because their GPS shows a lodge, closed in winter BTW, ahead. Then they set off on foot through the woods, OMG!!!

.. or the German tourist whose car's GPS got him stuck on a road closed in winter

http://www.jacksonholenews.com/article.php?art_id=2494

I remember another time hiking up Cone Peak Road in Monterey County. Some folks were driving their new-looking BMW SUV up the road, trying to figure out where they were -- they wanted to hike up Cone Peak but had no map, just the car's GPS

twoshuzz wrote:

MtnHermit wrote:

twoshuzz wrote:Hundreds of years of navi on the high seas in inclement weather dispel that theory.

You tell me.

I'll suggest that until the sky cleared such that the sun or the North Star appeared, those high seas navigators knew not where they were. All the compass did was provide North, but that alone did nothing to fix their position on a map.

They had only "dead reckoning" bearing and speed, nothing more. When the sky cleared then they could adjust the actual position. All of this assumed they had a accurate clock, no clock they were lost.

Getting back to land, the OP's Vancouver Island, no triangulation, no position. Fog, dark, heavy trees, no position fix is possible. Navigation is not the issue, the issue is where am I and can I get back to the cave. Provide a method in heavy timber for the OP to do that with your 15th Century tools.

One thing, what are you going to do when you can't get a signal or your batteries wear out ?. Dial 199 ?

911?

some harsh critics here.

GPS helped me get back down on White out conditions on Mustagh Ata. Also helped me out on Mt Fuji

I prefer the Garmin GPS as it can sync better with Macs than can Magellan. Used to have a 60csx before I cracked the screen and recently bought a little Etrex

I live at the bend in the Highway 243, about 1/4 mile before the left turn for Idyllwild Arts Academy. Our house's lower 2 acres are encircled by a dirt 4x4 road. One snowy winter evening a while ago, a man was banging on our office door screaming that his car was stuck and insisted I call 911. After I calmed him down, he explained that he followed his GPS to Idyllwild Arts and the thing told him to make a left turn onto our driveway. I asked him why he drove the long dark driveway and past our house, the garage, and down a steep enbankment and several hundred yards down 4x4 terrain, he replied, the GPS told me to do that. Next day it cost him $600 and the towing service did incredible job to winch him out of there. When I asked him if he thought learning how to read a map could be helpful, he said , naw, I just need better GPS. There is a lesson here...

Since I'm also from Vancouver Island I guess I should respond to the OP's question.

I carry a map/compass and GPS (Garmin 60CSx) on all but the most benign of my Island trips. This unit supplies all the data your OP requested. It has an excellent receiver which has never let me down even in the thickest forest.

Electronic failure (GPS) and the many magnetic anomolies on the Island (compass) argue in favour of the double approach.

I have to admit that I use my GPS rather than a compass almost all of the time. The thick bush encountered on many Island trips means you can almost never obtain a fix by triangulation.

Becoming familiar with terrain features is also an invaluable navigational skill here. For instance, what does the thickness and type of vegetation around you tell you about the directional aspect of the ground you're on? What do you know about the unique features of the ridge systems on the Island? How does the proximity of the ocean modify Island alpine features compared to elsewhere?

I just obtained a GPS watch type thing and have not been impressed, but it was a gift. Like the altimeter, barometer and temp.
My boyfriend is a caver of about 30 years and has an unerring sense of where he is. Can't use a GPS deep in a cave system. You better know how the cave trends, fault formation etc. Fun when it's a maze type cave.
Also when we hike he'll go offtrail, in forest, after studying a map say on TOPO, then hardly ever refer to it again. We'll hike miles to and from and he goes to the car without effort every time.
He says if you know the "lay" of the land, the way the land slopes and the canyons run in relation to mountains, the ridge lines and orient to sun direction and whatever landmarks there are you can navigate anywhere. I've seen him do this type of hiking at night from our camp in a pine forest. He has a gift I think but it harkens back to the original explorers---you developed a sense of your surroundings because if you didn't you died.

The Chief wrote:GP WHAAAT??????

Learn your map & compass and become proficient at it. It will most certainly save your ass one day.

A lot of people (present company excepted) who say such stuff to me don't actually know how to use a compass properly, or are unaware of the accuracy issues involved.

I used to map remotes areas (part of my job) with a Brunton sighting magnetic compass, which cost $400 in 1977.

I now use a GPS, but keep a compass backup.

As Minnie Pearl said, I've been rich and I've been poor, and rich is better.

Amazing how many tens of centuries man has orientated just fine without a GPS/Satelite.

Now it seems that one will get lost without the use of GPS in forested environments or any other that entails a little extra effort to properly orientate themselves.

OK...

If that is the case, I recommend that anyone with this attitude would be best suited remaining within the confines of their homes.

BTW.... orientating is an art. And anyone can triangulate and acquire a general pos in a forested environment very easily, just gotta learn how. If we can teach college educated fighter pilots that depend solely on computers/GPS's to determine their pos, in the woods of northern Maine, at night, with the simple use of a map and compass, anyone can learn how to do so in the light of day.

The Chief wrote:
BTW.... orientating is an art. And anyone can triangulate and acquire a general pos in a forested environment very easily, just gotta learn how. If we can teach college educated fighter pilots that depend solely on computers/GPS's to determine their pos, in the woods of northern Maine, at night, with the simple use of a map and compass, anyone can learn how to do so in the light of day.

It sure is an art (orienteering). And I've navigated through 8 whiteouts by map and compass. And I climbed a lot of trailless peaks in the Adirondacks, back when they were really trailless, and you couldn't count on seeing anything distant till you reached the summit.

But there are a lot of limitations to map and compass. Triangulation is really tough when you can't see anything; on days when the mountains were enshrouded by clouds, and I depended on that old Brunton, I couldn't map at all. And have you ever tried to use map and compass in 80 mph gusts? It's also really hard to follow a bearing through massive blowdowns with trees that obscure everything. I've spent tense moments being lost within 1/4 mile circle of confusion, as I climbed over and around beeches and balsams arranged like pick-up sticks, and freezing rain began to fall.

But sadly, just as many people don't really know how to use a compass, many people who buy GPS units have no idea of the limitations.

Amazing how many tens of centuries man has orientated just fine without a GPS/Satelite.

Yes, but we could extend that sentiment to a lot of stuff. We did without nylon, cams, ice axes, crampons, urethane and silicone waterproofing, good light tents, down sleeping bags, sticky rubber, altimeters, and a whole lot of other gear.

Good thread. Pro and cons cogently made, everyone has remained civil and a hilarious story thrown in.

What a fun thread. Good points all around. I just use the cheapo yellow Etrex. It does not show anything except your route and waypoints you put into it. For me, this works just fine. Gets me back to my truck after a long hunt and cun put a Lat/Long into it and hit find. After I have been to an area I know it pretty well. With that said, the BEST class I have ever had was a map and compass class. I am MUCH more comfortable with a topo map and compass anyday over a GPS. I dont like rellying on technology. If the forest is to thick, canyon too deep, it wont matter HOW good or much $$$ you spent on it. It no worky

I have magnetic particles in my head, and I can always find magnetic north. What gets me is when magnetic poles flip during a trip.

Let's clarify...

Orienteering is the actual use of a map and compass to determine one's POS.

Orientating is the result of the practice to determine where one actually is on a map and in the field after Orienteering properly.

The synthetics of a GPS does not require one to utilize any natural/real landmarks what so ever. One just needs to keep their head down, eyes on the map and the receiver.

As already posted, there are many factors that can affect a GPS receiver. If the GPS shuts down or is not able to accurately display data, the fact remains that the user best have a working knowledge of Orienteering or they will most likely resort to the use of their...Cell Phone! To call for help?

"Hello 911. I am lost. My GPS shut down. Can you please send SAR to rescue me!"

Don't laugh, it is a realistic and of late, a frequent scenario.

The Chief wrote:"Hello 911. I am lost. My GPS shut down. Can you please send SAR to rescue me!"[/i]

Don't laugh, it is a realistic and of late, a frequent scenario.

Over-dependence on equipment, and lack of intelligence about its use, is the real problem. We've never had such a call around here, but we do have people calling and saying, "Hello, 911, I've run out of water".

My experience: the average person who carries a compass either doesn't know the local declination, or doesn't know how to correct for it.

I've also never seen a GPS "shut down". A person (with a brain bigger than a walnut) carries extra batteries, and knows how to compensate for cold.

And anyone can triangulate and acquire a general pos in a forested environment very easily, just gotta learn how.

How do you triangulate if you cannot see an object to take a bearing? If you use ASA, how do you establish an accurate baseline length while traipsing through thick woods and blow-downs? What if you misidentify the objects used to take the bearings?