MoapaPk wrote:How do you triangulate if you cannot see an object to take a bearing? If you use ASA, how do you establish an accurate baseline length while traipsing through thick woods and blow-downs? What if you misidentify the objects used to take the bearings?

Baseline is established at the beginning of your adventure, correct?

Begin establishing short bearings from that point. Establish any potential landmarks from that point. Track line established on your map and begin to move in the direction of your prescribed destination. Continue to locate any highpoints, creeks, streams, bogs, ponds, lakes etc and utilize the pos of the sun while on your trek. Utilize any natural formations available and continue to take periodic bearings, short or long, on your map with the sun's pos assisting you. Using the sun as a ref point works wonders. At night, the stars & moon will work wonders when available.

Declination? Lower right hand corner of every USGS Topo for area of indicated map. If one can't figure out what and how to utilize and establish the DEC, they don't belong outside the confines of the city.

The Chief wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:How do you triangulate if you cannot see an object to take a bearing? If you use ASA, how do you establish an accurate baseline length while traipsing through thick woods and blow-downs? What if you misidentify the objects used to take the bearings?

Baseline is established at the beginning of your adventure, correct?

Begin establishing short bearings from that point. Establish any potential landmarks from that point. Track line established on your map and begin to move in the direction of your prescribed destination. Continue to locate any highpoints, creeks, streams, bogs, ponds, lakes etc and utilize the pos of the sun while on your trek. Utilize any natural formations available and continue to take periodic bearings, short or long, on your map with the sun's pos assisting you. Using the sun as a ref point works wonders. At night, the stars & moon will work wonders when available.

The above does not explain how to triangulate in the deep woods (or a whiteout), when you really can't see objects for a bearing. If you know your position on a map, you are not lost.

The classic triangulation involves either three angle bearings taken off known objects, or angle-side-angle, where one has to establish the side length with fair accuracy; pacing leaves much to be desired, and using a tape measure in thick woods is not too practical. I've done both, and errors propagate quickly.

Getting lost in most of the Sierra is nigh impossible, especially if one knows what peaks look like from many directions, perhaps from living in the area for a long time. The topography is extreme and there are lots of landmarks visible from a long distance; plus there are so many established routes and trails. This isn't the case in much of the country.

Kest wrote:I see here two camps.
Ones saying what GPS necessary.
Anothers saying what map and compass.

How about what to carry both and time of time verify position by GPS and by landmarks with map.

Agree

I like the 21st Century

CanadianSteve wrote:Out of curiousity,

WHICH GPS do you use?
WHY did you chose that one over another?

... I have been looking at the Garmin Geko 301, and the Garmin 60csx.

I would like functions such as barometric pressure, altimeter, electronic compass and obviously mapping functions with lots of waypoints.

Fine question, fine thread. I used a Garmin Legend until its display started going "toes up". Three repairs later, I selected the Garmin 60CSx. It is nowhere near as "deaf" as the older technology units are (I can get one or two satellites sitting here in my basement at 49degrees north, for pete's sake).

I say know and carry your map, use the GPS to confirm. It has altimiter and compass, but both depend on batteries and electronics, both are easily defeated in the field. I take a good mechanical compass to crosscheck with.

I also will bet that everyone on the forum has more experince than I, and opinions and experiences are like noses, "everyone has one".

Grandpa

I'm not even a old fart yet, and it saddens me to see folks in the backcountry with a GPS. They are simply unnecesary in areas where good maps exist.

Same goes for cell phones, sat phone, PLBs, computers at basecamp... maybe i am an od fart.

On open water sea kayak crossings, ice cap crossings, summit area of mountains like rainer in white out, i recognize a GPS's usefulness.


I recognize all these are useful, but so are ATV's

radson wrote:Agree

I like the 21st Century

I guess that's the rub, many of us DONT!

brandon wrote:I recognize all these are useful, but so are ATV's

Compared to an ATV, a GPS is a far less obtrusive and far, far less destructive.

brandon wrote:

radson wrote:Agree

I like the 21st Century

I guess that's the rub, many of us DONT!

There is a group in Western Pennsylvania that may welcome you.

At least an order of magnitude more folks have started fooling around in the backcountry since the advent of all these gadgets empowered them. Don't misunderestimate, ha, the impact of 10 or 20 or 30 times more users, many of whom don't treat the woods and mountains the same way their predecessors did.

It's all about the $$$, ask REI.

One of the biggest things that should be said is the best navigation skill anyone can have is to pay attention. Look at where you are going and where you've been. Use whatever you want to help get from here to there (map&compass, GPS, breadcrumbs,etc), but pay attention.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Excellent thread.

My experience is with a Magellan Sport Trek Map. It has gone electronic-psycho and now has its own circle of confusion of several miles and lives in a drawer.

Batteries for several days were significant weight.

Performance could be erratic in dense wet vegetation, including snow covered conifers. Therefore, not to be relied on exclusively.

I never got a chance to use it in a white-out or fog-out in featureless terrain, where I assume it would be a godsend.

BTW and FWIW, keeping religious track of where you are in the local drainage pattern makes life much easier in the brush and windfall nightmares we specialize in hereabouts.

Dougb wrote:Besides, I really like maps, they are one of man's coolest inventions.

I like maps too!!! That's the real beauty of the modern GPS . . . maps. Inside my GPS I have over 3000 - 7.5 min Quads at 24,000:1 Scale and I could easily have many times that number, try that with paper.

While it's true I'll never use but a fraction of those maps, the mere fact that they're there is very liberating. I always know that the map I need is there and I can feel free to explore new venues w/o worrying do I have the correct map with me. Besides those maps are incredibly cost effective too.

A GPS w/o maps is a worthless trinket, but with maps it's a revelation.

To those who insist on 15th Century technology, bless you. You're truly missing a terrific 21st Century tool.

brandon wrote:At least an order of magnitude more folks have started fooling around in the backcountry since the advent of all these gadgets empowered them. Don't misunderestimate, ha, the impact of 10 or 20 or 30 times more users, many of whom don't treat the woods and mountains the same way their predecessors did.

It's all about the $$$, ask REI.

And GPS has very little to do with this (postulated) increase. The local meetup groups field as many as 120 hikers in areas that were before rarely visited; the main influence has been the internet (hmmm SP), and people seeking to do stuff with their free time. I see relatively few people with GPS units. In the wilder areas, I generally don't see people at all.

Why do so many people want to climb Aconcagua these days? Not because of GPS.

A good grasp of map and compass use cannot be replaced with GPS and should be mandatory prior to GPS dependency

Assuming a decent map is made for the area you are hiking/climbing?

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