I was just reading The Complete Guide to Climbing and Mountaineering and they have a nice photo (page 198 for those reading along) showing the middleman tied in using an short isolation loop. I like the idea. The rope is able to ride along side of you while walking better than other methods (butterfly and biners, etc.). I can't rationalize any downsides to this method, assuming the isolation knot is close enough to reach in order to prusik out. Any thoughts on way or the other?

Do you have an illustration of this knot?

Yeah. Shoot. I'll have to scan it off next week. Stand by.

As promised! Any thoughts now?

I still prefer the alpine butterfly for its simplicity and quickness to tie into.

alpinejason wrote:As promised! Any thoughts now?

The actual knot that is replacing an alpine butterfly in the picture is nothing but a double overhand knot. Not particularly secure and the whole setup could be done with an alpine butterfly as well. You could still do that double slipknot and biner through the two loops (the tie-in) with an alpine butterfly; you'd just have to make the loop on the alpine butterfly extra long, but you really don't need all of that complicated bullshit.

I thought the question was about the overhand knot at the right edge of the picture. ("The rope is able to ride along side of you while walking..."). I'm no expert but I don't see a problem if it's kept short (and prusik loops are long enough, as noted in the OP). Mind you, I don't see a big advantage either. The rope won't magically ride up by your side just because there's a knot in it.

Petzl has some rock, ice, and snow climbing technique diagrams in there catalogs. I found this in the 2008 and 2009. It's similiar to the OP picture.

I haven't used this method either, but in theory it seems like it could help albeit more complicated.

Although were supposed to be talking about the knot on the right. Wouldn't a double bowline be preferable to the double overhand in the OP picture?

I'm bad at 3-D visualization, but doesn't that latest diagram create a girth hitch at the belay loop? See the "attaching 2 slings" thread... (I know, ropes are a lot stronger than thin slings, but still.) Also, wouldn't that be hard to get out of if needed?

nartreb wrote:I'm bad at 3-D visualization, but doesn't that latest diagram create a girth hitch at the belay loop? See the "attaching 2 slings" thread... (I know, ropes are a lot stronger than thin slings, but still.) Also, wouldn't that be hard to get out of if needed?

It does appear to create a girth hitch at the belay loop. To get out of it, just reverse the process in the diagram - except that you can't do that if the rope is under load.

cool guys. thanks for the input. i realize it probably wouldn't help things to have the iso. loop but i guess the consensus is it probably wouldn't hurt much either. we won't be back on the snow until june. maybe we'll try it out for fun. it just seems like (in my head anyway) that it would ride a bit nicer on your hip when walking along. i think a couple people mentioned different knots than the overhand on a bight shown in the picture. i agree, i would probably just use an exaggerated butterfly instead.

as for the petzl diagrams. i think the idea is interesting. but i like to be tied in or butterfly with a biner. i don't like the thought of having to jump rope, literally, to escape the rope if something happens. i think this idea was "developed" by the europeans. maybe somebody has more info.?

Buz Groshong wrote:

nartreb wrote:I'm bad at 3-D visualization, but doesn't that latest diagram create a girth hitch at the belay loop? See the "attaching 2 slings" thread... (I know, ropes are a lot stronger than thin slings, but still.) Also, wouldn't that be hard to get out of if needed?

It does appear to create a girth hitch at the belay loop. To get out of it, just reverse the process in the diagram - except that you can't do that if the rope is under load.

Or just unlock and open your 'biner.

Jakester wrote:

Buz Groshong wrote:

nartreb wrote:I'm bad at 3-D visualization, but doesn't that latest diagram create a girth hitch at the belay loop? See the "attaching 2 slings" thread... (I know, ropes are a lot stronger than thin slings, but still.) Also, wouldn't that be hard to get out of if needed?

It does appear to create a girth hitch at the belay loop. To get out of it, just reverse the process in the diagram - except that you can't do that if the rope is under load.

Or just unlock and open your 'biner.

It's unclear from the picture whether that's a belay loop or a biner. Of course, if it's a biner you wouldn't have to go through all of those gymnastics to get the rope hitched to it.

alpinejason wrote:As promised! Any thoughts now?

One thing I hate when I'm in the middle is the rope and knot rubbing against my thigh all day. To avoid this I've always tied in using an overhand knot with a very short loop and a small locking biner to my harness. The long tail after the overhand in the photo would make it worse for me. Also, seems like a complex process for such a simple matter.

Brad Marshall wrote:One thing I hate when I'm in the middle is the rope and knot rubbing against my thigh all day. To avoid this I've always tied in using an overhand knot with a very short loop and a small locking biner to my harness. The long tail after the overhand in the photo would make it worse for me. Also, seems like a complex process for such a simple matter.

I've used the tail, but it's annoying on snow since it drops the rope into the step-on-it-with-your-crampons range. And it's harder to reach (it can become pulled tight close to the ground, and pull your waist down). It was more useful like this in broken rock.