Catamount wrote: Whereas the Mount Hood thread was essentially an embarrassment to this site, the Mount Shasta thread has underscored the best parts of what SP is all about. Well done, elves.

kozman18 wrote: If I had time to waste, I would go find the link to the alternative PnP thread where someone posted a picture of the Bill of Rights. To me, that's "trotting it out." There is at least one thread there, maybe others, where a few of the particpants exhibit a complete misunderstanding of the Constitution.
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My other point is that the freedom to make such remarks is not one protected by the First Amendment, and those who confuse their desire to say whatever they want with the right to say it, do not understand what a "right" is.

mrchad9 wrote:

kozman18 wrote: If I had time to waste, I would go find the link to the alternative PnP thread where someone posted a picture of the Bill of Rights. To me, that's "trotting it out." There is at least one thread there, maybe others, where a few of the particpants exhibit a complete misunderstanding of the Constitution.
...
My other point is that the freedom to make such remarks is not one protected by the First Amendment, and those who confuse their desire to say whatever they want with the right to say it, do not understand what a "right" is.

I do not know if you are a constitutional lawyer of some sort, having not only read the US Contsitution but also have read much of the case law that goes along with it. If you were you would know this is absolutely critical in a common law system such as ours.

You say others are confusing desire and right. It is my understanding that, in a medium such as this, we all have the right to speak our mind as we wish, and neither elves nor the government can bring civil or criminal proceedings against us, whether they like it or not. The elves and the owners also have the right to edit or delete those same statements after they are made, and to delete accounts as they see fit, whether we like it or not. I thought there were rights on both sides here, not just desires, but like most of us I am not a lawyer so perhaps I am missing some perpective.

kozman18 wrote:The recent SP thread regarding the unfortunate death of a climber on Mt. Shasta demonstrates the drastic difference between a site that is moderated and one that isn’t.

Last December, when climbers on Mt. Hood went missing, a few SP members, including one now banned, decided it would be a good opportunity to explain the mistakes made by (and to cite the stupidity of) the still missing climbers. It was pointed out by other members that such a discussion was inappropriate given the purpose of the thread, and the fact that it was being monitored by friends, family of the missing, and the media. Nonetheless, the destructive banter continued until the thread got dumped into the now-defunct PnP cesspool.

I understand that the recent Mt. Shasta thread was edited/moderated to remove some inappropriate comments/behavior. The result was that the thread did exactly what it was intended to do – providing positive support for the missing climber and his partner, and keeping the SP community posted on rescue efforts. If you read this thread, you saw the best that SP has to offer -- what SP should strive to be. Quite a contrast from the path the Mt. Hood thread took and IMO a breath of fresh air.

For those who value their right to free speech above (almost) all else (as I do), remember that moderation of a forum like SP does not violate this right. The first amendment guarantees freedom from governmental abrogation of your right to speak. The first amendment does not guarantee the right to speak anywhere, anytime, about anything. You can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater without repercussion, and you can’t post political signs on my front lawn without permission. Many of the people who now populate the new PnP do not understand this – they trot out the Bill of Rights without the slightest understanding of what they really mean, and then cry and bitch about the loss of rights they never had. (They conveniently forgot that all SP members agree, in advance, to be moderated for inappropriate content – it’s in the rules, black and white).

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next person and appreciate the chance to join in – but when the debate ends up in name-calling, mockery, derision and pictures of people/children giving each other the middle finger, what’s the point? I got tired of bathroom humor somewhere in third grade – such behavior is way below the level of a great site like SP.

I am sure these comments will make their way over to the unmoderated PnP, where they (and I) will get thoroughly trashed. Have at it (I’ll consider it a compliment). The garbage that is being freely tossed about in that forum is exactly that: garbage. I don’t miss it one bit – SP is a much better place without it, and without those who vow (as part of some perverted “code of honor”) to never be silenced regardless of the time, place or content of their speech. Where I am from, this behavior isn’t considered a “code,” it’s known as Tourette Syndrome.

Hopefully, there’s a cure.

Castlereagh wrote:I respectfully disagreed with some of the more contentious perspectives in the Mt. Hood thread, and obviously agree that the Shasta thread has been handled well by both the Elves and the posters.

However, I think there is one major reason that has been ignored and has nothing to do with PnP: Shasta involves one of SP's own; Hood didn't. Even though it involved a fellow member of the mountain-climbing community it was still easier to dissect their decisions on the mountain. It's harder to maintain the same sentiments when the person you would be analyzing is someone who you might have climbed with, posted on the same forums with, whose trip reports you read, whose pictures you admired and voted on. Like others have said very well on the Shasta forum, Shasta involved our own, and we defend our own, especially when under attack from those on the periphery. I think, and I might be wrong, that had the Hood incident involved an SP member (and thankfully it didn't), the discussion never would have denigrated into what it became.

kozman18 wrote:The elves are not Congress, and can therefore devise any rules they deem appropriate without violating the First Amendment.

kozman18 wrote:The fact that members are given initial access does not equate to any legal right, it is simply the way the site is run (think about it -- banning is the ultimate restriction, it prevents any future speech).

kozman18 wrote:In contrast, Congress could not pass a law that prevents the exercise of free speech on SP. That's the point of the First Amendment.

Zzyzx wrote:
If you want to appear so civil and dignified why would you take cheap shots like your post above at the new PnP and those who participate in it? As a matter of fact why would you even lurk in there? Isn't it below you? Apparently not all of your interest in the bathroom humor was lost in the 3rd grade. Some of it still lingers.

Zzyzx wrote: What you did by starting this discussion shows that you're not different. Towards the end of your post you make yourself look like a victim of those who will "thoroughly trash" you (based on your assumption), but you started it by bringing them into discussion, knowing all too well that at least some of them cannot post here and defend themselves. Wow, you're a real hero!

Zzyzx wrote:If you don't like the garbage on SP then don't bring it in.

Zzyzx wrote:Some may not be very eloquent or good in beating around the bush and they may make very direct statements that some who are emotionally involved in a particular situation may found offensive. Those are the limitations of the internet and the type of communication that's available here.

Zzyzx wrote:But you're intentionally stirring crap here to take cheap shots at others. Move on dude, PnP is no longer here and nobody forces you to read the one that was created as a replacement. You are the one dragging it in here, not the other way around. If you have as much class as you claim then show it.

Zzyzx wrote:Squishy, some charcoal may help. You should try it.

squishy wrote: But I am still here, why? Because I stopped when PnP was deleted.

charles wrote:

Zzyzx wrote:Squishy, some charcoal may help. You should try it.

I found "those people can eat my shorts.... " funny!