The recent SP thread regarding the unfortunate death of a climber on Mt. Shasta demonstrates the drastic difference between a site that is moderated and one that isn’t.

Last December, when climbers on Mt. Hood went missing, a few SP members, including one now banned, decided it would be a good opportunity to explain the mistakes made by (and to cite the stupidity of) the still missing climbers. It was pointed out by other members that such a discussion was inappropriate given the purpose of the thread, and the fact that it was being monitored by friends, family of the missing, and the media. Nonetheless, the destructive banter continued until the thread got dumped into the now-defunct PnP cesspool.

I understand that the recent Mt. Shasta thread was edited/moderated to remove some inappropriate comments/behavior. The result was that the thread did exactly what it was intended to do – providing positive support for the missing climber and his partner, and keeping the SP community posted on rescue efforts. If you read this thread, you saw the best that SP has to offer -- what SP should strive to be. Quite a contrast from the path the Mt. Hood thread took and IMO a breath of fresh air.

For those who value their right to free speech above (almost) all else (as I do), remember that moderation of a forum like SP does not violate this right. The first amendment guarantees freedom from governmental abrogation of your right to speak. The first amendment does not guarantee the right to speak anywhere, anytime, about anything. You can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater without repercussion, and you can’t post political signs on my front lawn without permission. Many of the people who now populate the new PnP do not understand this – they trot out the Bill of Rights without the slightest understanding of what they really mean, and then cry and bitch about the loss of rights they never had. (They conveniently forgot that all SP members agree, in advance, to be moderated for inappropriate content – it’s in the rules, black and white).

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next person and appreciate the chance to join in – but when the debate ends up in name-calling, mockery, derision and pictures of people/children giving each other the middle finger, what’s the point? I got tired of bathroom humor somewhere in third grade – such behavior is way below the level of a great site like SP.

I am sure these comments will make their way over to the unmoderated PnP, where they (and I) will get thoroughly trashed. Have at it (I’ll consider it a compliment). The garbage that is being freely tossed about in that forum is exactly that: garbage. I don’t miss it one bit – SP is a much better place without it, and without those who vow (as part of some perverted “code of honor”) to never be silenced regardless of the time, place or content of their speech. Where I am from, this behavior isn’t considered a “code,” it’s known as Tourette Syndrome.

Hopefully, there’s a cure.

kozman18 wrote:
.......Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next person and appreciate the chance to join in – but when the debate ends up in name-calling, mockery, derision and pictures of people/children giving each other the middle finger, what’s the point? I got tired of bathroom humor somewhere in third grade – such behavior is way below the level of a great site like SP.

I am sure these comments will make their way over to the unmoderated PnP, where they (and I) will get thoroughly trashed. Have at it (I’ll consider it a compliment). The garbage that is being freely tossed about in that forum is exactly that: garbage. I don’t miss it one bit – SP is a much better place without it, and without those who vow (as part of some perverted “code of honor”) to never be silenced regardless of the time, place or content of their speech. Where I am from, this behavior isn’t considered a “code,” it’s known as Tourette Syndrome.

Hopefully, there’s a cure.

I've picked out the points I specifically want to respond to. Really to say I totally agree.

I tried to join in the new PnP, but it recently became very clear it wasn't for me. I am saddened and sometimes disgusted by what is going on in there. And that from me, a fairly broad minded guy. And will continue to be when appropriate here on SP.

But we live in a free world and they have the right to freedom of speech. And that I respect, even if I don't respect some of what is being said and some of the images being posted.

I just hope that some who left SP during the troubles will think about re-joining now it is calming down. We have a superb mountain site, and Off Route is proving that having the right choice of threads controlled by our long suffering but incredibly resilient elves can allow us to slowly build up the pure social side that I for one have found so wonderfully valuable and supportive over the past few years.

I'm am going to respectfully agree and disagree. I agree that on a thread that family members and friends may end up reading for info or for whatever reason, mistakes of hurt/missing/killed family members shouldn't be dragged through the mud and there should be some respect for the injuried/missing/dead.

I also disagree. It should be in a separate thread such that friends and family aren't offended but mistakes should and need to be discussed. One for the individual who made the mistake and secondly for the community at large, something along the line of the Accidents thread section of RC.com.

Growing up as a kid, the more senior climbers in the community made it known that if I mess up and live to tell about it, they'd rip me a new #ss&%!#. As I further developed I had a chance to become friends with a guy who was a world reknown climber. He told me point blank, if I ever had made a mistake he'd rip an #ss&%!# that you could drive a semi through. Now, I'm one of the more senior climbers and I make it known that I will also. It isn't out of malice but more out of actually caring for someone. You don't want to see someone get hurt.

If you are going through a decision making process and its a risk that sits in the grey zone (or not) but if the little voice in your head tells you that if you mess up, the wrath that will come down will be quick and humiliating, maybe it will keep a friend alive.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:

Starship SP has left orbit and gone to warp speed. The old forum was left behind.

That is really the end of the episode.

DMT

Keep on slip streaming.......

Actually I enjoyed the old P&P and I miss it somewhat - that it is gone will not change my life though. I post, as one says in the British House of Commons when talking about the Lords, in the "other place" but it hasn´t the same depth of both intellect and nuttyness, unfortunately.

CClaude wrote:If you are going through a decision making process and its a risk that sits in the grey zone (or not) but if the little voice in your head tells you that if you mess up, the wrath that will come down will be quick and humiliating, maybe it will keep a friend alive.

I think we can all learn from the decision-making of others -- analyzing those decisions and the outcome can be instructive. I read accident reports for that very reason, and try to pick up pointers on SP. Hopefully, this has helped me avoid bad situations in the mountains as a result.

My point is that there is a time and place for everything. The time to analyze decision-making is after the fact, when all the facts are known. The place is not in a thread about a climber who is missing. SP can be a good place for such analysis, but those who are offering opinion and/or criticism should balance the instructive aspects of their remarks against respect for the climber/family/friends involved.

My other point is that the freedom to make such remarks is not one protected by the First Amendment, and those who confuse their desire to say whatever they want with the right to say it, do not understand what a "right" is.

kozman18 wrote:

CClaude wrote:If you are going through a decision making process and its a risk that sits in the grey zone (or not) but if the little voice in your head tells you that if you mess up, the wrath that will come down will be quick and humiliating, maybe it will keep a friend alive.

I think we can all learn from the decision-making of others -- analyzing those decisions and the outcome can be instructive. I read accident reports for that very reason, and try to pick up pointers on SP. Hopefully, this has helped me avoid bad situations in the mountains as a result.

My point is that there is a time and place for everything. The time to analyze decision-making is after the fact, when all the facts are known. The place is not in a thread about a climber who is missing. SP can be a good place for such analysis, but those who are offering opinion and/or criticism should balance the instructive aspects of their remarks against respect for the climber/family/friends involved.

My other point is that the freedom to make such remarks is not one protected by the First Amendment, and those who confuse their desire to say whatever they want with the right to say it, do not understand what a "right" is.

I agree with you there - a tricky theme non the less. It´s about responsibility, I think, and that is a big can of worms it seems.

That is why I suggested, maybe instead of a PnP, maybe there should be an Accidents and Injuries section. Its good to keep remarks that are negative out of the "General" section since friends/family could be using that section for support/information. Moving such discussions to a Accidents and Injuries section with a disclaimer before the link that the discussion is "unmoderated" and inflammatory remarks can and will be said.

Mark has many friends and acquaintances, and the accident has been fodder for discussion outside of SP, both online (several supertopo threads, one on cascadeclimbers and various facebook threads for example) and off. I suspect that there will also be a report in Accidents in North American Mountaineering.

Does there really need to be another thread on SP about this ? A lot of folks on SP have had epics and / or climbing accidents. I wonder how many of them would like to have their names dragged through the mud in a way that is accessible by Google ..

butitsadryheat wrote:I am not part of the new PnP, but to be fair, I have yet to see anyone there "trot out" the Bill of Rights and complain that they lost them. They may bitch about the demise of PnP from SP, but they haven't done what you say they have (at least I haven't seen it). You can knock them all you want, but be truthful about it.

I am being truthful. If I had time to waste, I would go find the link to the alternative PnP thread where someone posted a picture of the Bill of Rights. To me, that's "trotting it out." There is at least one thread there, maybe others, where a few of the particpants exhibit a complete misunderstanding of the Constitution.

I stand by what I said.

Yes, as far as I know, only one trotted out the Bill, but the complaints about free speech are not confined to just one. And not a broad brush -- there are only a few people who exhibited the poor behavior I discussed (I never said there were many). But in a sensitive discussion like the Mt. Hood ands Mt. Shasta threads, it only takes a few to drag the discussion into the cesspool. Moderating this behavior has nothing to do with the Constitution.

I saw the “asshat” comment before it was deleted. Left standing, this comment was bound to be soundly rebuked by the community, as was beginning to happen.

Frankly, if I were a friend or family member of Tom’s, the questions surrounding Mark’s leaving him would have to occur to me. Seeing that question raised, even in an insensitive way, and then soundly rebuked by climbers would help to settle the issue in my mind.

The Shasta thread has been a good one, and it is obvious that Mark made all the right decisions. His actions insured his friend’s comfort to the degree possible, his own safety, and the safe and timely recovery of Tom’s body.

While the moderation made for a more “correct” dialog on the thread, leaving the insensitive comment and the replies would have been ok by me.

butitsadryheat wrote:Again, I think the moderation was proper, as I also believe this site has every right to limit speech on these boards, I just would like to see it be even-handed. When it's not, it just reinforces the beliefs of bias and favoritism.

I understand that and agree -- moderation is always subjective, but everyone should be treated equally. Being a moderator is not an easy job.