Okay, forget the 70 lbs, for some reason that number was floating in my head because the one guy I know who's climbed Rainier I could swear said he carried that much, and at this stage I'm thinking more about my fitness than the details of my setup. I know people go on much less weight than that and I know some of the things I do that I could do better, but 30 lbs is surprising to me. I'm skeptical it's safe/feasible/inexpensive, but I'm all ears for how to reduce my pack weight.

And I'd prefer not to hire a commercial guide (though haven't ruled it out), or rely on someone else to compensate for my lack of conditioning. I have bonked in a group of fitter people than myself before because I joined a climb that mentally I could do, but physically couldn't go at their pace. It's embarrassing. At some point, maybe not on Rainier in good conditions, but eventually if you do enough mountaineering, such a scenario goes from mere embarrassing to dangerous. And the whole point of doing it is to enjoy it, not just to tick it off the list. And I need to go fast enough to afford to spend time taking photos

Pack weights can very hugely on Rainier. With regard to RMI it is true their clients stay in their hut and they have sleeping pads for them but their clients still carry 35-45 pounds packs. That’s also what it says on their site to be prepared to carry. Alpine Ascents already have tents set up for their clients when they go up. Their clients also carry similar weights.

You won’t find too many people that have packs 30 pounds or less. And you certainly won’t find a new person to mountaineering with that light of a pack. It usually takes several years and much experimentation to get your pack down to a low weight. In fact people going on their first major climb with a guide service usually need to be in much better shape than their guide if they want to even keep close to them. They face three big challenges versus their guide:

1. Inexperience climbers usually have a heavier pack because they don’t know what to take and they end up rent or borrowing heavier items than an experienced person would have.

2. They will move much less efficient on the varied terrain then the guide. On snow they won’t make good foot plans and they slip around using more energy. They will stumble more in their crampons.

3. The psychological excitement of the new experience, great exposure and fear of the unknown will also tap energy reserves.

The sum of these three factors will take a heavy toll on a new climber thereby greatly reducing their performance. In fact I wrote an article on this subject. You can see more detail at Be in better shape than your guide.

With regard to running yes I’m sure that people that would have a hard time running continuously for a 5K have made it up Rainier. But I’m also sure people that have been able to run marathons have failed on Rainier too and not just because they have an issue with altitude. What does this tell us? It tells us that running prowess has a very low correlation to success on Rainier, so you better have a more mountaineering specific training program.

bodyresults wrote:It usually takes several years and much experimentation to get your pack down to a low weight. In fact people going on their first major climb with a guide service usually need to be in much better shape than their guide if they want to even keep close to them.

I disagree. It usually takes one trip for a noob with 70lbs on his back to realize "this sucks", talk to others, research gear and take a huge drop in weight. (I know this from personal experience ) It might take years to go from 38lbs to 31lbs for a climb like Rainier, but that's just fine tuning IMO.
How on earth can people going on their first major climb be in better shape than their guide? That is a pretty silly statement for two reasons. First, the guide is going to be in the best possible shape for climbing...because they are climbing all the time, living/working at altitude, humping packs, etc. So for anyone who is hiring a guide, I'd say it is virtually impossible to be in better climbing shape than the guide.
Second, you imply that the average client can't "keep close to them"...what is the guide going to do? Leave the client in their dust to find their own way? No, the guide slows down.

bird wrote:

bodyresults wrote:It usually takes several years and much experimentation to get your pack down to a low weight. In fact people going on their first major climb with a guide service usually need to be in much better shape than their guide if they want to even keep close to them.

I disagree. It usually takes one trip for a noob with 70lbs on his back to realize "this sucks", talk to others, research gear and take a huge drop in weight. (I know this from personal experience ) It might take years to go from 38lbs to 31lbs for a climb like Rainier, but that's just fine tuning IMO.
How on earth can people going on their first major climb be in better shape than their guide? That is a pretty silly statement for two reasons. First, the guide is going to be in the best possible shape for climbing...because they are climbing all the time, living/working at altitude, humping packs, etc. So for anyone who is hiring a guide, I'd say it is virtually impossible to be in better climbing shape than the guide.
Second, you imply that the average client can't "keep close to them"...what is the guide going to do? Leave the client in their dust to find their own way? No, the guide slows down.

Sure, some gear changes might be made after a person’s first trip. It also depends on how often they are going to be going out. Some people can’t get out that often. Also, if you’re already purchased gear others might not have the financial ability to replace several pieces of gear. In addition, a person is not usually confident after one trip to be able to know what they didn’t need. You will get more and more comfortable over time learning what you really need and what you don’t.

For shape compared to a guide I’m trying to get across the point that your fitness is a factor (a big one) but also other things like skill and experience play a role if efficient travel on a peak like Rainier. It is not meant to be taken so literally.

When I say be in better shape than your guide I’m referring to review of specific fitness components. For example a person could be could be very strong on barbell lifts and unilateral movements, they might be able to run 75 second quarter mile repeats on 60 seconds rest, they might be able to run a 10K in 6 minute miles and they may also be able to carry their overnight pack up 4,000 feet of a dirt trail in 2 hours. However, they could get out performed by another person that has lower fitness levels but has more skill (not just footwork but things like the rest step and pressure breathing), carries less weight and is not phased by crevasses you can’t see the bottom of, sleep icy slopes and extreme weather.

The overall point is that new people to mountaineering probably need a more rigorous training program than their experienced counterparts.

brandon wrote:Everybody's too worried about can I run this far, how much should I lift weights.

It's all in your head. Seriously.

It's hiking uphill in the snow for 2 days. Anybody can do this. If you're in great shape you might hum and whistle and have fun while doing it. If your a smoker and a couch potato, your lungs and legs will burn.

I'll put forward that most people who fail on such mtns do so from lack of mental preparation and perserverance, than lack of physical fitness.

And going with a guide service cattle drive is cheating. Plus it handicaps you, having to adhere to the rope teams pace. Learning and practicing the necessary skills, and find a decent partner or team is part of the mental preparation.

Brandon, I agree with you that mental preparation and perserverance is a major part of such a climb but in my experience physical training is a good way to be mentally prepared. Through training you will learn how to push yourself, you will know your personal boundaries and get more perserverance. Discipline and setting goals which should be part of a traning program should help as well. Even though I have to admit that training is not the only way to aquire mental preparation and perserverance.

bodyresults wrote: they might be able to run a 10K in 6 minute miles and they may also be able to carry their overnight pack up 4,000 feet of a dirt trail in 2 hours. However, they could get out performed by another person that has lower fitness levels but has more skill (not just footwork but things like the rest step and pressure breathing)

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but it's obvious you're a training focused athlete who climbs, as opposed to a climber who trains for climbing.

If you head to Rainer and were able to conduct an accurate survey, how many folks returning from the summit do you thing could hump 35lb or more(overnight pack to you?) 4,000 vertical feet in 2 hours.

Maybe we have a different perception of the average climber's fitness, but I'd say it would be a VERY small percentage. Honestly, 2000ft/hr, that's elite level fitness. 10m/min AVG over hours=Crazy fast, no Insanely fast. Superhuman fast.

I'm playing the devil's advocate in this discussion. Sure, people have more fun, and a better chance of being successful if they are fit. Sure, training long and hard and regularly helps build the mental toughness necessary. But implying a person must be a training machine and super athlete to succeed is garbage. But scaring people has always been a good way to sell them something!

This geezer would probably have something to say about mountaineering vs fitness:

kheegster wrote:This geezer would probably have something to say about mountaineering vs fitness:

Yes, he would: Let someone else break trail, make camp, melt water, and cook so that he was rested enough to walk to the summit.

bodyresults wrote:The overall point is that new people to mountaineering probably need a more rigorous training program than their experienced counterparts.

He says in a completely unbiased way.

You're pretty subtle and I'm sure you believe everything you say. BUT you are selling something so it's hard to separate the pitch from the belief.