Diggler wrote:

taxinvestor wrote:Yankees were responsible in your two instances, not Southerners - don't drag us into it!

Put the blame where it belongs - dog owners who don't use leashes - anything else borders on racism (the person and the dog).

-- A Southern Rotty Owner

Since when are Mormons Yankees? I seem to recall that they had to be told forcefully that Utah was actually part of the Union, & that they had to comply with their laws.

Ha, yes of course, although we could have used their help to open up a western front in the War of Northern Aggression.

This is, sadly, little surprise. You see variations of this wherever you go. There are simply people who, no matter how much money they make or how much education they have, are self-serving bastards who have an "I got mine" mentality and also think they can do whatever they damn well please, regardless of impact on anyone or anything else. It ranges from what Dow describes all the way to the assholes who talk on phones during movies, and there are more and more of us like that, it seems.

Edit: As a dog lover, I also have to say that irresponsible owners like those described here also really bother me because their negligence is why some animals are "put down" and why some places overreact by banning specific breeds, resulting in the confiscation and killing of such animals within those jurisdictions.

I'm a reluctant dog owner--my wife insisted on having one as a condition for getting a cat, which my daughter desperately wanted. She's a reasonably large dog (~60 lbs.) and needs a lot of exercise, and walking sedately around the neighborhood on a leash doesn't cut it. She needs to get out an haul ass in the open space for a couple hours every few days or she starts getting hard to live with. Since I hike a lot, I wind up being the only one who ever takes her out for a good run.

I find leash laws to be a pain in the backside. There are few places you can go that don't have them. So I find myself caught between wanting to give the dog a decent life, and trying to be conscientious about other people. Kaya doesn't get to go off leash in national parks, or other places where she would be a nuisance, but when I'm on NF land and there aren't many people around, she gets to run free.

Yeah, it's against the rules, but I've given up trying to live by every rule some damn fool thinks will solve a problem. The biggest problem I've seen are people (most of them dog owners) who want to impose human standards of behavior on dogs. I feel sorry for their animals.

Wildlife Refuges actually serve a purpose believe it or not. Quite a bit of thought, time and resources have gone into the ones I have been associated with. Please don't let your dog run loose on Wildlife Refuges if it likes to chase wildlife.

Because you own a dog does not put you on either side of this issue. I have always owned a dog, that has nothing to do with it. And I would be one who really bugs you Steve, because I truly believe my dog's life, soul, happiness, etc is worth as much as yours. I have met you both. If you were both drowning in the Bow River, I hope you make it, but I am going after the dog. This idea of "elevating" ourselves over our fellow creatures on earth is as preposterous to me as when we elevate ourselves over each other based on religious beliefs. A load of crap. A bunch of creatures living together for a specified and limited time on a planet which has limitations as well. End of story. I will eat to survive. Dog, human, does not matter to me. But killing for the mere sport of it, or just plain laziness....well, that shows no appreciation for mother nature. When we as a collective society decide to establish a Wildlife Refuge, leave it be and go be a red neck somewhere else I say. Tons of land to piss on and trash up that is not being managed.

There, that is my point, ludicrous as it sounds.

Dow Williams wrote:Wildlife Refuges actually serve a purpose believe it or not. Quite a bit of thought, time and resources have gone into the ones I have been associated with. Please don't let your dog run loose on Wildlife Refuges if it likes to chase wildlife.

Because you own a dog does not put you on either side of this issue. I have always owned a dog, that has nothing to do with it. And I would be one who really bugs you Steve, because I truly believe my dog's life, soul, happiness, etc is worth as much as yours. I have met you both. If you were both drowning in the Bow River, I hope you make it, but I am going after the dog. This idea of "elevating" ourselves over our fellow creatures on earth is as preposterous to me as when we elevate ourselves over each other based on religious beliefs. A load of crap. A bunch of creatures living together for a specified and limited time on a planet which has limitations as well. End of story. I will eat to survive. Dog, human, does not matter to me. But killing for the mere sport of it, or just plain laziness....well, that shows no appreciation for mother nature. When we as a collective society decide to establish a Wildlife Refuge, leave it be and go be a red neck somewhere else I say. Tons of land to piss on and trash up that is not being managed.

There, that is my point, ludicrous as it sounds.

I was saying something similar the other day to someone. The issue was executing Panda Poachers in China. I noted they had 1.3 billion people but only about 1800 Pandas.

Steve Larson wrote: but when I'm on NF land and there aren't many people around, she gets to run free.

Yeah, it's against the rules,

As far as I know, there aren't leash laws on NF land, except in wilderness areas and some developed areas (camp grounds and popular trails). I could be wrong, but I've certainly never heard of any and they certainly aren't enforced around here.

It is actually legal to hunt in many of the "wildlife refuges" set up by BLM in the US. They limit the number of permits, but the terrain does much more limitation. I'd guess that in the Desert National Wildlife Refuge, mountain lions take many more sheep than humans do.

mconnell wrote:

Steve Larson wrote: but when I'm on NF land and there aren't many people around, she gets to run free.

Yeah, it's against the rules,

As far as I know, there aren't leash laws on NF land, except in wilderness areas and some developed areas (camp grounds and popular trails). I could be wrong, but I've certainly never heard of any and they certainly aren't enforced around here.

It's wilderness areas I'm talking about. The dog generally doesn't chase after other critters, except lizards, which are a dime a dozen. Twice she took off after a deer, which was totally pointless, since the deer just left her in the dust. And I'm not too concerned about deer. We issue hunting permits for them. They are highly adapted to living with people. In some places they become a nuisance, partly because we keep the mountain lion numbers down. If I thought she was a problem I'd put her on a short rope. CO is a different place. I've hiked around the Rockies a bit in the last year, and there are dogs everywhere, and almost none of them are leashed. I don't mind a bit, and if it is against the rules, I'm glad the FS folks don't go around writing tickets.

And Dow, I agree about folks letting their animals harass wildlife in a refuge setting. But I think you've got it bass ackwards equating any animal's life with a human life, with the possible exception of guys like Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Karl Rove. Yeah, I'd save a rat's life before I did anything for those turkeys.

What a lot of dog owners don't seem to realize is that allowing dogs to run free in wildlife sanctuaries can adversely affect local wildlife even if those animals aren't physically present when the dog is there. That's because dogs mark areas with urine and/or feces and many animals preyed on by dogs are sensitive to the smell left by potential predators such as dogs, and will avoid those areas if possible. That defeats the whole point of a wildlife sanctuary. I frequently run in an area on the SF Peninsula that's a wild bird sanctuary, is clearly signed as a "no dogs off leash" area, and recently had certain portions fenced off because of violations of the dogs off leash rule. What's more, the local authorities posted signs for several months warning dogwalkers that if dogs continued to run offleash they'd be forced to fence off the area, and it would keep people as well as dogs out. Note also that there is a convenient dog park nearby that is explicitly designed to allow dogs to run offleash. What happened? They had to fence the area off because dog owners continued to ignore the signs, and now it's illegal for dogs or people to go there.

Not only do I still routinely see dogs running offleash in the sanctuary (in fact I almost never see them on leash), I sometimes see owners lifting the fence to the fenced off area to allow their dogs in to chase the birds. I've given up trying to talk to them about it - I think some people just don't give a damn about anyone or anything that infringes on their precious dog's happiness (and as a dog lover myself, I can understand how they might feel that way).

On a semi-related note, I've found several dogs at a trailhead near my house....usually just wandering around, slowly starving. When I spoke with animal control about it they said that it's a common place to drive your dog to and drop it off if you don't want it. I don't understand why people wouldn't at least take them to the humane societ

Foweezer, living in Idaho Falls I see this allot, I have found many abandoned dogs near my house by a cannnel. I have contacted the humane society to see if I could drop te dogs off was was told NO! due to the fact that they did not know the history of the animal. yes people can be a$$ holes who cannot handle the resposeabillity of a dog.

Dow, I as a dog owner agree with your point. I do take my dog hiking with out a leash but she has never had the urge to chase after animals, just sniff new smells. I feel if you cannot have controll of your pet off leash then it should remain on leash. I do keep my dog on a short lead if we are in heavy mountain loin country, but thats for more of her sake then the mountain loin

Well, so much for being self-righteous (for me). When I was walking around the block with my wife this evening, we passed a house where the dog is allowed to run around unleashed. The dog circled us nipping at our heels. After we passed the house and the dog was on the 5th pass, I roared at the dog, and it ran back.

Apparently the young girls at the house, who didn't actually see the incident, were convinced that I kicked the dog. They went inside (the oldest was about 9) and told their parents.

As we were walking up the road, this guy in a large penis-extender truck stopped and started shouting at me, saying he was going to beat the shit out of me, kill me (in front of two witnesses) because I had kicked his dog. I told him I hadn't kicked the dog, just roared at it. He said I was calling his girls liars. I tried to be as calm as I could be, repeating that I hadn't kicked the dog. His wife was with him, going on this rant about calling the humane society to report me for animal cruelty. The guy called me old man, and said he didn't care how old I was, he was going to beat the shit out of me.

The guy got out of the car, not wearing a shirt, big tattoo on his arm, and I realized he was completely hairless and without any muscular definition. He seemed to think that I should be impressed by his tattoo and smooth, fatty physique. He demanded I admit kicking the dog, which I wouldn't do, and he got back in the truck. He kept saying he was going to kill me. So I walked up to the truck, put my hands on the window, and said, "you know, you may be younger, but you don't look very strong." This infuriated him, so he got out of the truck. I just got in a typical defensive karate pose (though it has really been 36 years), and he rushed back in the truck with a hail of obscenities. His wife then said, "my husband just had a heart attack, and I work for an attorney." So suddenly they felt I was threatening the nutball husband; this was the new angle. Much legal action was threatened over an incident that never happened.

He drove off, the witnesses started breathing, and one said, "why didn't you just point out that his dog is supposed to be on a leash?" Duh. It's hard to be Winston Churchill when a maniac is screaming at you.

Now I'm left with the adrenaline of the incident.

MoapaPk wrote:Well, so much for being self-righteous (for me). When I was walking around the block with my wife this evening, we passed a house where the dog is allowed to run around unleashed. The dog circled us nipping at our heels. After we passed the house and the dog was on the 5th pass, I roared at the dog, and it ran back.

Apparently the young girls at the house, who didn't actually see the incident, were convinced that I kicked the dog. They went inside (the oldest was about 9) and told their parents.

As we were walking up the road, this guy in a large penis-extender truck stopped and started shouting at me, saying he was going to beat the shit out of me, kill me (in front of two witnesses) because I had kicked his dog. I told him I hadn't kicked the dog, just roared at it. He said I was calling his girls liars. I tried to be as calm as I could be, repeating that I hadn't kicked the dog. His wife was with him, going on this rant about calling the humane society to report me for animal cruelty. The guy called me old man, and said he didn't care how old I was, he was going to beat the shit out of me.

The guy got out of the car, not wearing a shirt, big tattoo on his arm, and I realized he was completely hairless and without any muscular definition. He seemed to think that I should be impressed by his tattoo and smooth, fatty physique. He demanded I admit kicking the dog, which I wouldn't do, and he got back in the truck. He kept saying he was going to kill me. So I walked up to the truck, put my hands on the window, and said, "you know, you may be younger, but you don't look very strong." This infuriated him, so he got out of the truck. I just got in a typical defensive karate pose (though it has really been 36 years), and he rushed back in the truck with a hail of obscenities. His wife then said, "my husband just had a heart attack, and I work for an attorney." So suddenly they felt I was threatening the nutball husband; this was the new angle. Much legal action was threatened over an incident that never happened.

He drove off, the witnesses started breathing, and one said, "why didn't you just point out that his dog is supposed to be on a leash?" Duh. It's hard to be Winston Churchill when a maniac is screaming at you.

Now I'm left with the adrenaline of the incident.

Shit, MoapaPk. Me too, just from reading it.

Personally, I feel justified kicking anything that has voluntarily, with hostility toward me, come close enough to be kicked. I have had out-of-control dogs try to bite at my legs while I was running, and you bet your ass I tried to kick them. I would never do this, other than for self defense, but protecting one's self from getting bit definitely qualifies as self defense. Sorry, dog owners who can't control your out-of-control, biting pet; I guarantee it's better for both you and me if my foot busts your dog's head than it is if I get bit by your dog.

If you routinely get chased by dogs on a bike, you can carry an extra sports bottle filled with ammonia to squirt in the dogs face. For running, if there's usually a dipshit out when you run, then take bear spray one day. Get the owner first if possible. Call 911 immediately to have them arrested for assault. When you're caught out without any of those things, reach down to the ground like you're picking up a rock. All dogs know what that means and will flee.

MoapaPk wrote:Well, so much for being self-righteous (for me). When I was walking around the block with my wife this evening, we passed a house where the dog is allowed to run around unleashed. The dog circled us nipping at our heels. After we passed the house and the dog was on the 5th pass, I roared at the dog, and it ran back.

Apparently the young girls at the house, who didn't actually see the incident, were convinced that I kicked the dog. They went inside (the oldest was about 9) and told their parents.

As we were walking up the road, this guy in a large penis-extender truck stopped and started shouting at me, saying he was going to beat the shit out of me, kill me (in front of two witnesses) because I had kicked his dog. I told him I hadn't kicked the dog, just roared at it. He said I was calling his girls liars. I tried to be as calm as I could be, repeating that I hadn't kicked the dog. His wife was with him, going on this rant about calling the humane society to report me for animal cruelty. The guy called me old man, and said he didn't care how old I was, he was going to beat the shit out of me.

The guy got out of the car, not wearing a shirt, big tattoo on his arm, and I realized he was completely hairless and without any muscular definition. He seemed to think that I should be impressed by his tattoo and smooth, fatty physique. He demanded I admit kicking the dog, which I wouldn't do, and he got back in the truck. He kept saying he was going to kill me. So I walked up to the truck, put my hands on the window, and said, "you know, you may be younger, but you don't look very strong." This infuriated him, so he got out of the truck. I just got in a typical defensive karate pose (though it has really been 36 years), and he rushed back in the truck with a hail of obscenities. His wife then said, "my husband just had a heart attack, and I work for an attorney." So suddenly they felt I was threatening the nutball husband; this was the new angle. Much legal action was threatened over an incident that never happened.

He drove off, the witnesses started breathing, and one said, "why didn't you just point out that his dog is supposed to be on a leash?" Duh. It's hard to be Winston Churchill when a maniac is screaming at you.

Now I'm left with the adrenaline of the incident.

lol, damn, finally, a "fellow felon" on SP..........I get in these red neck tiffs all the time....it follows the exact same pattern, big tough guy (but big=fat), then the health problems become the excuse, then "my 2nd cousion is an attorney"....god, that was good....Moapa, what are doing going around kicking dogs, little kids, old ladies and the like? You should be locked up. Hillarous.

MoapaPk wrote:Well, so much for being self-righteous (for me). When I was walking around the block with my wife this evening, we passed a house where the dog is allowed to run around unleashed. The dog circled us nipping at our heels. After we passed the house and the dog was on the 5th pass, I roared at the dog, and it ran back.

Jesus. Sometimes when I'm jogging I carry small rocks in my pocket for just such an encounter. My father-in-law has been bitten by off-leash dogs twice. Both times the owner was close enough to say, "oh, don't worry, he won't bite."