rockymtnclimber wrote:Chief,Much respect to you, and I'm sure there wasn't anything that could have been done for the guy, but you have to admit that the statement sounds bad. Saying "last" fatal incident makes it sound as if there's a list of them. Based on your usual input, you seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience, but based on that line, well... I wouldn't put it in an advertisement. Kris

Thanks, Kris.

This particular incident was included in Accidents in North American Mountaineering 2009.

Also, the list that I speak of is, as many that know me personally and here on SP, know that I flew as a SAR CREWMAN with the US Navy in different regions of the world including Antarctica. Thus the rest of the folks that succumbed in my presence and did not make it that I include in this list were all part of the many SAR Ops that I partook in over the years. Not guiding. Three in particular died of exposure/hypothermia and would most likely be alive today had they had a PLB. We got to them some six hours too late. Their initial location was very sketchy to say the least and it took the four different air and land resources involved in the Search Op almost 62 hours of non-stop searching to actually locate them.

My personal experiences are merely a plug for the use of a PLB on any mountianeering/climbing/backcounty adventure that would entail a SAR OP of any kind in order to get to ya if anything bad were to go array. I will indeed continue to "advertise" my personal experiences if it saves someones ass some day. That is what others experiences are for. Those that do not openly share the experiences, good or bad, in this respect, that may one day actually save another one's ass, are indeed selfish.

rockymtnclimber wrote: Saying "last" fatal incident makes it sound as if there's a list of them. Based on your usual input, you seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience, but based on that line, well... I wouldn't put it in an advertisement.

Kris

Accidents and fatalities are the rule, not the exception—it goes with the territory. The more frequent one's mountain excursions, the more experience that will be had dealing with critical situations. I don't see anything in Chief's post but frank honesty and reality. More importantly, I see someone who is prepared for the inevitable.

I have been using Spot for three years myself, and same as Chief, my family is a primary reason; they can watch my progress and launch a rescue in the event I cannot. My trips are almost always solo making Spot all the more critical to my checklist. I tell check-in recipients that I'll check-in twice daily while in the mountains. If stuck in a crevice or other such obstacle, the beacon can't transmit and the "911" option is no longer effective; likewise would be an incapacitating injury preventing PLB activation when going solo. If no check-ins are received over a 24 hour period, recipients are instructed to initiate contact with appropriate authorities. Used correctly, I have found the device entirely reliable.

A very handy website for using the Spot beacon and comes at no additional expense: http://spotwalla.com

Chief,

The fact that most of those "incidents" were on SAR ops does clear that up a lot, and is perfectly understandable. The comment about not "advertising," was in reference to guide services, and rather stated in jest. When it comes to sharing that kind of info in the forums, I'm all for it. I'd much rather learn from others' mistakes than my own. It's the same reason I share my experience.

ExcitableBoy,

Seriously? You know nothing about my experience, or my planned trip. I'm perfectly aware that I have plenty to learn, but I also know that I'm well past the "inexperienced" phase. Perhaps you should find out a little before you start putting people down.

I don't know why I need to "get over" myself. I didn't once brag about myself, or put anyone else down. I also didn't insult anyone (such as yourself) who brings the cell, PLB, etc. If people are competent, and not negligent in getting into a situation, then their use is fine. It's just not for me. You don't have to make it personal. But I guess you are "excitable."

-Kris

Lots of different opinions on this I see. Well, I went ahead and bought a ACR SARLink view. I know it's not a foolproof system and accept that it might not work when I need it. However, if it saves my life or one of my partners then it was well worth having it.

I've read people's concerns about those that have one might take unnecessary risks they might not otherwise take. For me I feel will be the opposite. I don't want to be the one putting the lives of others on the line because I made a stupid decision I wouldn't normally make based on having a PLB.

I found this story of a successful use of a PLB on Mt. Rainier last year.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150247925780440

Thanks for the replies and opinions.

I never plan on carrying a PLB, but I always carry a cell phone even though I rarely get good reception. If you cannot transmit the nature of you emergency, it makes the SAR response fairly ineffective or complete overkill depending on the true nature of the emergency.
As a SAR volunteer I have worked with several Navy SAR corpsmen who disliked the current trend in PLB usage. A number of people have used PLBs for non emergencies and cost the government a good amount of money.

Mountainjeff wrote:I never plan on carrying a PLB, but I always carry a cell phone even though I rarely get good reception. If you cannot transmit the nature of you emergency, it makes the SAR response fairly ineffective or complete overkill depending on the true nature of the emergency.
As a SAR volunteer I have worked with several Navy SAR corpsmen who disliked the current trend in PLB usage. A number of people have used PLBs for non emergencies and cost the government a good amount of money.

There was understandable resistance to the use of PLBs on land for many of the right reasons. Years ago, I used one in my ocean kayak, and it was made clear back then that their use on land was strictly prohibited. I'm uncertain of the circumstances surrounding the implementation and approval for PLB for land use, but I'd have no problem with requiring a license to carry one (or something stricter than what is currently required) thereby helping to reduce misuse and false alarms.

Mountainjeff wrote:I never plan on carrying a PLB, but I always carry a cell phone even though I rarely get good reception. If you cannot transmit the nature of you emergency, it makes the SAR response fairly ineffective or complete overkill depending on the true nature of the emergency.
As a SAR volunteer I have worked with several Navy SAR corpsmen who disliked the current trend in PLB usage. A number of people have used PLBs for non emergencies and cost the government a good amount of money.

That is why the SPOT has two modes.

HELP which only transmits a preassigned msg to the preassigned POC.

911 which is transmitted to the Emergency Response Center which in turn notifies the appropriate emergency entities in the immediate location of the 911 transmision.

MtnJeff: Appears today's Navy SAR Crewman are more concerned with their XBOX than they with starting up an getting in the air. Regardless if it is a false alarm or not. First thing we were taught at SAR Swimmer School back in the late 70's, every call out should be treated the same. False alarm or not. We are to act and perform as professionals on every event. Besides, getting airborne and flying around, always beat sitting on our asses on call.

When I was flying and called out, we always knew that two other NAS SAR Units would be responding as well. We all raced to the determined POS and we all pitched in. Just as any emergency response service, you should never get tired of responding. It is all training and only makes you that much more efficient on every new call out.

rockymtnclimber wrote:...I guess you are "excitable."

-Kris

Duh.

Mountainjeff wrote:I never plan on carrying a PLB, but I always carry a cell phone even though I rarely get good reception. If you cannot transmit the nature of you emergency, it makes the SAR response fairly ineffective or complete overkill depending on the true nature of the emergency.
As a SAR volunteer I have worked with several Navy SAR corpsmen who disliked the current trend in PLB usage. A number of people have used PLBs for non emergencies and cost the government a good amount of money.

I have to jump in on this one. You are mis-characterizing Navy SAR. Not one single SAR crewman or pilot in the military ever has budget in their minds while spinning up on a rescue. All they care about is getting the person or group out safely. Why would a SAR crew not want people to use PLB's? It makes their job 1000% easier as the first part of the acronym(search) is taken care of. If a couple of people misuse the devices - oh well! Training flights are a constant in the military and there is no better training than to do it for real.

The Chief wrote:

Mountainjeff wrote:
MtnJeff: Appears today's Navy SAR Crewman are more concerned with their XBOX than they with starting up an getting in the air. Regardless if it is a false alarm or not. First thing we were taught at SAR Swimmer School back in the late 70's, every call out should be treated the same. False alarm or not. We are to act and perform as professionals on every event. Besides, getting airborne and flying around, always beat sitting on our asses on call.

When I was flying and called out, we always knew that two other NAS SAR Units would be responding as well. We all raced to the determined POS and we all pitched in. Just as any emergency response service, you should never get tired of responding. It is all training and only makes you that much more efficient on every new call out.

Don't listen to idiots. It's no different today than it was back then.

Here in the PNW climbers enjoyed helo rescues from military units for many years. These pilots are incredibly good at what they do. Many of these units were called into action in Irag and Afghanistan so civilian pilots took over and helos crashing into mountains during rescues became almost common place. (Ok, it only happened a couple of times but watching a helo roll down a mountain is a pretty striking image.)

Have looked at these since I do alot of solo trekking.

The issue with PLBs (as opposed to spot?) is "Who you gonna call"?

Outside the usa/europe, few if any agencies monitor these devices and since the signal only transmits for 2 days it probably is little more useful than a $500 brick. A spot seems more useful but I saw alot of posts that the latest models were of very poor build quality and cs was unresponsive. As we speak, I have not invested in one. Still, it is a good concept but I prefer a cell phone when in the states. Partly, since I have one. Pitney

pitney wrote:Have looked at these since I do alot of solo trekking.

The issue with PLBs (as opposed to spot?) is "Who you gonna call"?

Outside the usa/europe, few if any agencies monitor these devices and since the signal only transmits for 2 days it probably is little more useful than a $500 brick. A spot seems more useful but I saw alot of posts that the latest models were of very poor build quality and cs was unresponsive. As we speak, I have not invested in one. Still, it is a good concept but I prefer a cell phone when in the states. Partly, since I have one. Pitney

Spot Satellites are reliable in my experience. I have never summoned a search and rescue via the "911" button, nor a call for "Help", but my twice daily check-in signals came through reliably over the past three years of use. I'm guessing most reported troubles with reliability are rooted in user errors, but I have never looked into it as I have had no cause. I'm sure some units could be defective, so always do a test run if purchasing a new one. As for the latest model which pairs with a Garmin GPS, the idea of being able to text messages is intriguing, but in this over-connected world we live, I have no desire to go beyond the basic functions that come with the first two models.

I think they are a great piece of technology. It is relatively old technology and well tested. EPIRBS (Emergency position-indicating rescue beacons) have been used at sea for decades before the land-based models became available. History has proven they save lives. I'm not above wanting my live to be saved, but I will be very upset with myself if I launch a rescue because of something I could have avoided. Using my Spot Beacon to launch a rescue will be a last-case scenario as it should be for everyone, at that has been the problem with their use. People without common sense will launch a search and rescue without justification or by accident. Much of the public will purchase one of these things and then get into situations where they had no business. It is why I think it would be appropriate to stiffen ownership requirements. Un-necessary S&R attempts will handicap resources for the more legitimate emergencies. I can't imagine the status quo holding up much longer with the increasing land-based popularity.