mrchad9 wrote:REI has a 100% markup on many full priced items. At least they do on Mountain Hardware clothing and gear (I have access to MH wholesale gear at times).

So if you buy a sleeping bag for $200, use it for many years until the zipper breaks and then return it and get another, REI still comes out ahead. REI pays $100 for the first bag, gets the NPV for your full payment up front, account for inflation, and they are still ahead even after paying the next $100. Add to it the other gear you pick up and don't return and its apparent why they haven't come close to running out of business no matter how the economy is doing.

And utilizing a policy isn't taking advantage. When companies take tax breaks and use offshore accounts they are simply doing what they are supposed to do... it's specifically allowed.

100% markup is pretty standard. Look at the MSRP compared to the wholesale price.

Another thing to consider with the old REI return policy: Any idea how many people returned gear bought elsewhere? In CA, I knew several people that would buy gear online for a discounted price, use it for one trip, and then return it to REI for a full price refund.

Edit: BTW - some manufacturers (Black Diamond is one, or used to be) mandate that 100% markup. At the store where I used to work, we had to charge MSRP for Black Diamond gear except for very limited sales.

Tonka wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:REI has a 100% markup on many full priced items. At least they do on Mountain Hardware clothing and gear (I have access to MH wholesale gear at times).

So if you buy a sleeping bag for $200, use it for many years until the zipper breaks and then return it and get another, REI still comes out ahead. REI pays $100 for the first bag, gets the NPV for your full payment up front, account for inflation, and they are still ahead even after paying the next $100. Add to it the other gear you pick up and don't return and its apparent why they haven't come close to running out of business no matter how the economy is doing.

And utilizing a policy isn't taking advantage. When companies take tax breaks and use offshore accounts they are simply doing what they are supposed to do... it's specifically allowed.

There is no excuse to rip off a company because you think they make too much profit. REI is a very well run company compared to most and with your last comment I presume you have no issues with large companies taking advatage of all and every possible tax loophole?

No one is ripping off REI. If REI doesn't want to accept a return they don't have too, same now as before. Folks here don't seem to get that.

If someone came up and asked you for the keys to your car because he wanted it, you don't have to give them to him, that isn't your policy. But if it was, it's your own fault for giving him the car, not his for asking for it. REI made its own policy and it isn't ripping them off to follow it.

Tax loopholes (also known as tax breaks) are made to be utilized. If you don't like it, blame the lawmakers, not the companies. Large companies taking legal deductions to lower tax payments is no different than families and head of households taking deductions for having children, paying mortgage interest, giving to charity, or using a health saving account. They are all loopholes.

When homeowners voluntarily decide to stop deducting mortgage interest then you can look to large corporations to do the same fiscally irrational behaviors.

If someone came up and asked you for the keys to your car because he wanted it, you don't have to give them to him, that isn't your policy. But if it was, it's your own fault for giving him the car, not his for asking for it. REI made its own policy and it isn't ripping them off to follow it.

I do have a second car if you'll take the keys, really like to have it....disappear.

I also agree with what your saying but there is a crowd that feels the right to take.

If I don't like their policies, I don't have to buy stuff there. REI hews to a business model that works; they must balance customer loyalty, costs from maintaining the candy store euphoria, and losses from returns. As the population changes, the components of the business model change to retain profitability. This isn't a moral issue.

mrchad9 wrote:REI has a 100% markup on many full priced items. At least they do on Mountain Hardware clothing and gear (I have access to MH wholesale gear at times).

So if you buy a sleeping bag for $200, use it for many years until the zipper breaks and then return it and get another, REI still comes out ahead. REI pays $100 for the first bag, gets the NPV for your full payment up front, account for inflation, and they are still ahead even after paying the next $100. Add to it the other gear you pick up and don't return and its apparent why they haven't come close to running out of business no matter how the economy is doing.

And utilizing a policy isn't taking advantage. When companies take tax breaks and use offshore accounts they are simply doing what they are supposed to do... it's specifically allowed.

I wouldn't hire you as my accountant! They have to pay the rent on the store and the salaries of the help - that typically requires a 100 percent markup. Sounds like you are just trying to justify your own bad behavior.

How is following their policy bad behavior?

I don't need to justify anything. Following the policy has nothing to do with what their markup is. I was just explaining that the markup is high enough that they have obviously been able to be profitable all these years even with the old policy. So profitable in fact that they could just cut checks out annually to everyone who shops there.

All the costs you laid out are fixed costs though, and have nothing to do with an extra customer going in and purchasing a new sleeping bag.

mrchad9 wrote:How is following their policy bad behavior?

I don't need to justify anything. Following the policy has nothing to do with what their markup is. I was just explaining that the markup is high enough that they have obviously been able to be profitable all these years even with the old policy. So profitable in fact that they could just cut checks out annually to everyone who shops there.

All the costs you laid out are fixed costs though, and have nothing to do with an extra customer going in and purchasing a new sleeping bag.

If you are following it honestly with no intention of abusing their trust it is not bad behavior, but if you are using their policy simply to get something you didn't pay for then it is.

If something wears out before it should, nothing wrong with getting your money back or a replacement. If it simply wears out normally and you ask for your money back, that is dishonest. Also, if you buy something with the intention of using it and then taking it back, that is dishonest.

You said I was justifying my own bad behavior. Not true.

For example... I bought a pack, used it for eight years. Then the ice ax loop fell off. I took it in and asked if they could fix or replace it. Their decision was to look it up in their system, see what I paid for it, and refund me the money. Then I bought the same pack again which by that time was $17 cheaper.

Nothing wrong with doing that, it was their decision. And that policy has encouraged me and many others to be loyal customers and buy 100s of other items that didn't get returned.

I thought climbers are most like-minded people: generous, enthusiastic, good people...do not take advantage and abuse others' good will and good gesture. Sorry but you made me a little disgusted defending why it is good to 'follow policy' while in common sense you are abusing it.

REI's new policy still covers defect no matter how long you had the gear. So, it you are not an abuser, which I think most outdoor people are not. You shouldn't bitch about anything. 1 year is plenty long for you to try out things.

Why do you hate America?

sm0421 wrote:I thought climbers are most like-minded people: generous, enthusiastic, good people...do not take advantage and abuse others' good will and good gesture. Sorry but you made me a little disgusted defending why it is good to 'follow policy' while in common sense you are abusing it.

REI's new policy still covers defect no matter how long you had the gear. So, it you are not an abuser, which I think most outdoor people are not. You shouldn't bitch about anything. 1 year is plenty long for you to try out things.

I only pointed out the policy is changing. Sounds like you are the one bitching.

I'm not at all happy with the change. Many times I'd opt to buy gear at REI because of the return policy and pay the extra $$$ rather than buying on line at a discount. I see two drivers for this change;

#1. The REI now is not the REI of 25+ years ago. They have expanded their stores across the country and at the same time broadened their consumer base. The majority of this new customer base is not well versed in the outdoors and how to care for or even use a lot of the gear they sell. Just because you bought a backpack doesn't mean you can hike the JMT. To most of these people gear is no longer an investment to learn to use properly and carefully. Now its "use it until it breaks" and then buy something else (or return it for a replacement). Worst case people simply return gear because a better version is now available (I've seen a couple people do this with jetboils that still worked).

#2. Fact: gear is no longer made to the same standards as in the past and it can easily fail after the one-year mark even with careful use. While gear quality goes down, at least REI was able to save me from shelling out another couple hundred dollars to replace what should have lasted a few years. And what about the end-of-season winter gear I purchased a couple months ago and will likely sit in a box for 12 months until I get back to the mountains?

One final thought... last time I remember, REI was a membership co-op that people paid to join. This is a significant departure from the principles of the company we've grown to admire over the years. Something this big should have been discussed as an option at the annual shareholder's meeting. Instead of worrying about profits, get back to the reason the company was founded in the first place; provide good gear to the outdoor community and stand by the product sold.

Unfortunately with the new return policy I'll just start buying the same or similar gear on the internet and save some money upfront and hope the gear lasts. For disposable items like food, socks, etc I'll still shop at REI for the discount and dividend. Although next year's check will likely be a lot smaller.

I don't have a problem with this policy change. But I do have a problem with their exorbitant pricing on named-brand gear. So I check the merchandise out at my local REI store and buy elsewhere. Occasionally I'll buy something on sale at REI. We have a local outdoors-focused retailer here in Portland called Next Adventure which has a wide selection of backpacking gear (better than REI's) and always offers better pricing. Or I can resort to online retailers. Bottom line, REI is losing out on my business because they are not price competitive.

Mike

mrchad9 wrote:You said I was justifying my own bad behavior. Not true.

For example... I bought a pack, used it for eight years. Then the ice ax loop fell off. I took it in and asked if they could fix or replace it. Their decision was to look it up in their system, see what I paid for it, and refund me the money. Then I bought the same pack again which by that time was $17 cheaper.

Nothing wrong with doing that, it was their decision. And that policy has encouraged me and many others to be loyal customers and buy 100s of other items that didn't get returned.

I guess we're just different. I wouldn't have expected them to fix it or replace it after 8 years. I'd have just fixed the loop myself, or maybe bought a new pack.

Well, I hope they still keep the stores open, so I can try out gear, and try on shoes, and then buy those items at lower prices on-line.