redneck wrote:

Guyzo wrote:Guess what- after about 8 weeks..... all the "restored plants" had died

After 6 years, and one fire, the road is really gone. "Mother Nature" know how to take care of herself.

All these "restoration projects" sure do cost a lot of $$$$$$$.

In California, the best way to restore an area is to put a fence around it.

How about cover it over with concrete?

Dry..... thanks for the info.

I climb all over the Kern River.

When asked "where do you climb" I answer.......

"In the Kern River Drainage..... its year round, in winter stay low, in summer go hi......"

I like to hit my favorite spots at least once a year...... Just to dust the cobwebs off the climbs.

I can count on one hand, all the other climbers I have seen at these places. (not counting The Needles and Dome Rock)

GK

Where the hell do people get off clearing flora for a climb? This dillhole should be stiffly fined for this nonsense. I don't climb, I hike, and we spend time every hike cleaning other's trash and marveling at how careless people are with the area that they are supposedly enjoying. If we want to keep communing with this incredible land we've been blessed with we should never alter it for our own conveniences!

Bottomline,

Many of us here that know better and have been around this gig far too long, need to seriously watch what we do and say, out there!

Our actions indeed set fundamental standard for those many that lack the correct knowledge and attitude.

That is the best course of action in order to show the "Tools" out there, that there are some still around that care and want to be an intricate part of the solution. Not the problem.

Regarding echo cliffs, it's worth giving the SuperTopo thread linked above a new read.

It appears that the new route setter walked in with the rangers and removed the five offending routes voluntarily. I suspect that this will be the end of new route development at Echo Cliffs, where the good routes were all first done more than ten years ago and until this recent development the place has remained pretty static.

I guess I got that little detail wrong.

It's to bad Ben doesn't have better taste in route lines.

I have climbed some of his "creations" and they are OK climbs.

Maybe 1/3 of them.

His problem is after he creates one he just shuffles 10 feet left or right and starts in again.

And I guess Eric and Skippy didn't scrub the stone clean on Bunnymen, they just spied some super clean stone, right in the middle of all that moss, and well he couldn't help himself.

So maybe we can all learn from this.

Personally I now have a higher regard for the NPS and the "Head Ranger" in the Santa Monica's.

He could have used this to shut us all down but he understands climbing and climbers.

GK

The Chief wrote:

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Now in my little world, I am model for no one. But I'm no one's follower either. I make up my own mind. I can't be ordered, but I can be convinced. I listen to reason but I don't think the Book of Regs is the last stop on this topic.

DMT

Oh how very contrar you are....



We must all set an example for those that we are charged with. The choices that we make amongst those individuals around us, will indeed influence them in one way or another in the future.

We are all models for someone, whether we like it or not.

Someone is always watching... it's a very intricate component of that "Tribal" mentality you constantly share about.

Bingo!

what a pain in the ass!

mattocrc wrote:what a pain in the ass!

YUP... the people out there that proliferate their selfish stupidity and shit all over the little wilderness that exists within the confines of their urban expansion.

Definitely a Pain in the ass to all them criters that just want to be without Man's selfish implosion on what is left of their little peaceful world.

Guyzo wrote: A few other climbers added to the mess. One Erik Wolf and his GF.... "Skippy", stole one of Ben's "lines" that Ben had cleaned of moss, vegetation and trees.

Had to register to respond to this. I thought you were above this Guy.

We did not steal their route. There was no fixed protection or signs of the rock being cleaned when we put this route in. By your logic, if I simply cut a few branches back at the base of some unclimbed section of rock (something I would never have done BTW), it is now my route.
Regardless, Ben, Pam, Skip and I resolved this between ourselves personally, so why do you feel the need to insert yourself into this particular personal exchange in the same way Ryan has? And to do it on a public forum? This random personal thing you threw out there (see above quote) has nothing to do with the closure issue, so again, I ask - why? Did you just want to defame us?
That is bullshit, Dude.

Also, to clarify: Although we did remove some verdegris and dirt in our route, we did not remove any of the endangered succulents that really drew the eye of the NPS.

Erik Wolfe

Edit for another quote fro Guyzo: And I guess Eric and Skippy didn't scrub the stone clean on Bunnymen, they just spied some super clean stone, right in the middle of all that moss, and well he couldn't help himself.

I will remember these quotes next time I see you, Guy. Your sarcasm comes off as childish.

be nice Erik i don't hate you .... never did. i recall the email that i sent you was a bit to the point but that's why i was only sorry!
I was only getting the word accross to you and your friend who attaches that big ole yellow brush to her back pack!!! the rangers are a serious matter at ECHO.
do you want me to post that email! i wanted you to go past easy street...remember!
anyway if your putting up a route includes a chisle,brush,pry bars and epoxy then it's not going to count as a route. maybe you should think before you act.
trust me I know (PYRO) considered meth and tripp drugs got me lock out of a park for a few years!
also the rangers have defamed Erik Wolf, skip,ben and his wife...
RM

*(sigh)* I've been trying to just stay clear but this keeps getting revived.

All this squawking about the quality of the new routes at Echo is ludicrous. EVERY route at Echo cliffs required cleaning and the statement that clean beautiful lines existed there all on their own without lots of cleaning is a lie. Lots of people enjoy Ben's routes. They are not total garbage and they are not all squeeze-jobs. I'm sorry if the 5.12 climbers think they are boring. I can certainly point you to some choss and squeeze-jobs in your preferred rating if you like.

Here-QUOTE John Long if you don't believe me:

"For starters, Echo was a totally manufactured climbing area to begin with, especially the main area. Without massive pry barring and "cleaning," through which many handy holds appeared, plus enough heavy construction grade glue to hold the USS Arizona together, the is no Echo Cliffs climbing."

The park service made their call. It was the right call. Ben willingly erased a few routes on a specific wall and this will all be ancient history before you know it. Erik and I put up ONE route and had no plans to do another BTW. My conscience is clear. Absolutely no trees were cut down (that was a total lie). None of the endangered succulents were cleaned of our particular line. Just loose rock. I have never "sought fame"- only a fun route. Pam, Ben and I are now friends and there's no hard feelings over a climb that no longer exists.

Throughout this whole debacle I respect Louie Anderson (original developer of the area) more and more. All of his responses have been nuetral and constructive in spite of whatever his personal feelings may be. He acted as a liaison with the park service and a friendly compromise was agreed on and has been nothing but a positive influence. He acted to fix things rather than just flapping his gums. I sincerely wish that everyone else who has decided to involve themselves in this would take his lead.

Guy- I like you and respect your opinion about creating new routes at Echo, but your willingness to buy into some of the rumors and mis-information being tossed your way really, truly saddens me. I always took you for the smart one of that bunch. Your statement that naturally clean lines ever existed at Echo is bizarre.

Ryan. You are one of the most passive aggressive human beings I have ever encountered in my life and the amount of misinformation and lies about this whole debacle that originates from you and that Butoo-guy (whoever he is) is substantial. You always say"Be Nice". I say practice what you preach for real and quit being so self-righteous. You have issues with a route getting cleaned with a brush? A very soft brush I might add. Quit climbing at Echo and Malibu, and Joshua Tree and pretty much everywhere else in Southern California for that matter. Its ALL choss and every single damn one of them got brushed off to make it climbable. I'd appreciate it if you and yours stayed clear of me and mine from now on.

It's really time to move on and quit trying to stoke the dead fire. The park service is happy and they are the only one's who's opinion matters to me at this point.

...Quit climbing at Echo and Malibu, and Joshua Tree and pretty much everywhere else in Southern California for that matter. Its ALL choss and every single damn one of them got brushed off to make it climbable.

I'm steering clear of all this fighting over a situation which worked out properly...

But I have to say I've done a number of decent new routes in Josh and other Socal areas and never once have I needed to use a brush of any kind. But then I'm an old trad climber who actually cares how routes get done, one reason I don't visit echo very often.

Caffein is a fun route. Is it manufactured? I didn't notice, I was busy having too much fun...

I'm sorry to see all the hatin', but I am happy for everyone that Ben did the right thing and the Rangers actually made a good decision as well.

Cheers,

Kris

edit: I forgot to copy in the quote.

Maidy wrote:*(sigh)* I've been trying to just stay clear but this keeps getting revived.

All this squawking about the quality of the new routes at Echo is ludicrous. EVERY route at Echo cliffs required cleaning and the statement that clean beautiful lines existed there all on their own without lots of cleaning is a lie. Lots of people enjoy Ben's routes. They are not total garbage and they are not all squeeze-jobs. I'm sorry if the 5.12 climbers think they are boring. I can certainly point you to some choss and squeeze-jobs in your preferred rating if you like.

Here-QUOTE John Long if you don't believe me:

"For starters, Echo was a totally manufactured climbing area to begin with, especially the main area. Without massive pry barring and "cleaning," through which many handy holds appeared, plus enough heavy construction grade glue to hold the USS Arizona together, the is no Echo Cliffs climbing."

The park service made their call. It was the right call. Ben willingly erased a few routes on a specific wall and this will all be ancient history before you know it. Erik and I put up ONE route and had no plans to do another BTW. My conscience is clear. Absolutely no trees were cut down (that was a total lie). None of the endangered succulents were cleaned of our particular line. Just loose rock. I have never "sought fame"- only a fun route. Pam, Ben and I are now friends and there's no hard feelings over a climb that no longer exists.

Throughout this whole debacle I respect Louie Anderson (original developer of the area) more and more. All of his responses have been nuetral and constructive in spite of whatever his personal feelings may be. He acted as a liaison with the park service and a friendly compromise was agreed on and has been nothing but a positive influence. He acted to fix things rather than just flapping his gums. I sincerely wish that everyone else who has decided to involve themselves in this would take his lead.

Guy- I like you and respect your opinion about creating new routes at Echo, but your willingness to buy into some of the rumors and mis-information being tossed your way really, truly saddens me. I always took you for the smart one of that bunch. Your statement that naturally clean lines ever existed at Echo is bizarre.

Ryan. You are one of the most passive aggressive human beings I have ever encountered in my life and the amount of misinformation and lies about this whole debacle that originates from you and that Butoo-guy (whoever he is) is substantial. You always say"Be Nice". I say practice what you preach for real and quit being so self-righteous. You have issues with a route getting cleaned with a brush? A very soft brush I might add. Quit climbing at Echo and Malibu, and Joshua Tree and pretty much everywhere else in Southern California for that matter. Its ALL choss and every single damn one of them got brushed off to make it climbable. I'd appreciate it if you and yours stayed clear of me and mine from now on.

It's really time to move on and quit trying to stoke the dead fire. The park service is happy and they are the only one's who's opinion matters to me at this point.

Skippy and Erik...... Sorry I tossed you two into the whole mess. All you two did was put up a climb in the area that was already "cleaned".

I care about our local climbing enuf to go get in folks faces. After talking with Ben a long time ago it was apparent that I was wasting my time. The dude is totally clueless - a fact.

There are climbs at Echo that are pretty steller and didn't need heavy handed techniques to establish. Ones like "Death by Chocolate", "The Stain" and "Immaculate" to name a few, are all on rock that didn't need to be prepped. I love to do these climbs, they are good. I hope you and Eric have enjoyed these because they are some of the "good ones"

I was sort of shocked that Erik could not see just what was going to happen here with all the plant and moss scrubbing going on, but maybe he did, cause you guys stopped adding climbs.
He has been around the block more than a few times with these climbing fiasco's.

So I will say again, sorry to you two.

C-ya.

GK