The Chief wrote:

Buz Groshong wrote:The underlined part seems a possible scenario to me. Even if going after the money doesn't become motivation, it's easy to see how lines get blurred and and covered expenses end up becoming benefits. Many business people consider the business lunch a legitimate expense, but how often is it much fancier than that person would buy if they were paying for it? I'd guess 99.99% of the time. Same thing happens to people in other lines of work, such as politics or charity. That road can lead to coach arifare becoming a chartered flight.

Blinding Self Ego is the first thing that comes to mind.

But, and a bigass BUT, that is no excuse for anyone's actions or behavior when it goes array into the negative and dishonorable side.


Honor and integrity must always prevail, constantly, when one puts themselves into this type situation..... ALWAYS.

Absolutely!

Unfortunately, that quality of self discipline and "Personal Quality Assurance" (Integrity) seems to no longer be a requirement nor a mandate in today's world.

Look folks, we are all desperate to hear good news, to think that there could be a way to spread good will. I thought I had researched CAI a lot before I made my donation a year ago; apparently not.

But we have to step back and wonder when the bad is balanced by the good. I respect Martin Luther King Jr; but I also know that he plagiarized 40% of his doctoral thesis. I would guess he was too focused on getting out and making a difference, and bent the rules. Maybe Mortensen felt the same way; he decided to become a nurse instead of a doctor, supposedly because he could not see 7 years of school as a precursor to helping.

Most of us have a belief that people can change, and can be forgiven. Chief, does the phrase "you let Thor hit the deck" sound familiar? When someone attacked you on SP about 2-4 years back, we all recognized there was probably some truth in the allegations, but almost to a person, we felt you had overcome a lot, and had done more than enough good to make up for any past misdeeds.

What is true integrity, true honor? It's not "never falling." It's "getting up and trying again."

MoapaPk wrote:Most of us have a belief that people can change, and can be forgiven. Chief, does the phrase "you let Thor hit the deck" sound familiar? When someone attacked you on SP about 2-4 years back, we all recognized there was probably some truth in the allegations, but almost to a person, we felt you had overcome a lot, and had done more than enough good to make up for any past misdeeds.

What is true integrity, true honor? It's not "never falling." It's "getting up and trying again."

Most important part of that definition is coming clean and admitting ones fault. Not blaming anyone nor making excuses for ones actions.

I openly/publicly came forth, took full responsibility/accountability for my past terrible alcoholic behavior and actions. More importantly, made amends to that individual for my drunken behavior. I blamed no one and made no excuses.

That is clearly why I posted as I did earlier this morning. Like I said, I am far from being any saint. BUT! I have learned in the past ten years what the true meaning of integrity really is and have done all in my power to follow that direction. Hard as it may be, I am mandated to do so in order to remain sober and live a serene life. If I do not do as mandated, I will return to my old life and surely die a miserable, lonely and dishonorable death.

Again, that is probably why this issue hits home....

T Sharp wrote:Your creative editing proves that Mortenson will be misconstrued!
This quote from Moapa peaks link: By Weston DeWalt, "Weinberg has begged a question: Was Krakauer's account of Boukreev's actions on Everest distorted? If it was, he argues, "It is a far greater error than simple factual inaccuracy since it undermines a person's reputation."
and in this light, your account of Mortensons letter is a far greater error.

Explain to me how my quotes distorted Mortenson's letter (which, of course, was quoted in full a few posts previously). And after all, what's wrong with thanking people on behalf of the "dear children," and telling your followers they are "shining lights," and telling them about how you have a hole in your heart but are perservering, against medical advice, because of the urgency of your calling? Did any of these quotes portray Mortenson in an unfavorable light? You are proud of him for writing them, are you not?

Fletch wrote: (I can assure you, the folks in Pakistan are having a ball with this one).

What do you mean by this? I'm just curious, that's all.

An organization I did some work for later turned out to have some sketchy accounting practices. I don't anyone living in the rural areas of developing countries ever heard anything about it or cared, although they were less prominent than CAI, certainly.

As I've said before: if these allegations and issues are wrong, they can be refuted fairly easily.

Even if they are somewhat true, that doesn't have to be the death knell of CAI and it's mission--if they own the mistake, make transparent changes (most of which would not be that difficult, despite what they may think), it will look good, be the right thing to do, and reflect positively on them relative to most nonprofits that operate in developing countries (and probably most nonprofits everywhere).

builttospill wrote:Even if they are somewhat true, that doesn't have to be the death knell of CAI and it's mission--if they own the mistake, make transparent changes (most of which would not be that difficult, despite what they may think), it will look good, be the right thing to do, and reflect positively on them relative to most nonprofits that operate in developing countries (and probably most nonprofits everywhere).

"Somewhat"? Truth only comes in one manner... either it is or it isn't.

The CAI doesn't need to own anything. Rather, GM needs to own it all. It is his behavior and actions that are at the bottom of all this.

Read JK's manuscript regarding this issue and will you see the entire story. BTW, have you done so builttospill? Has to be pretty bad for individuals such as Tom Hornbein and Gordon Wiltsie to remove themselves from this org due to the many ill issues/practices that they were confronted with during their tenure on the Board of the CAI.

Somewhat ironic how two days prior to the airing of the 60 Min seg, GM is suddenly diagnosed with an Atrial septal defect that GM has definitely had all his life as one is born with them (as it is a congenital heart defect), and now requires immediate repair. I too was born with one and did not have it repaired till I was twelve years old. Almost ten years after being diagnosed with having one.

Fletch wrote:I also thought it was a jab against the US military action in Afghanistan

Mortenson is an advisor to the U.S. military.

Also, I don't want to chime in too heavily since I generally support Mortenson, but I just find it problematic that some folks, finding suggestions (and that's all they are at this point) of a few improprieties, are ready to turn all angry villager on the guy and torch the entire outfit, CAI, and Mortenson, which are really different entities.

Fletch wrote:

builttospill wrote:

Fletch wrote: (I can assure you, the folks in Pakistan are having a ball with this one).

What do you mean by this? I'm just curious, that's all.

No worries. My point is that if Mort is a fraud (and it sure looks that way), then the folks in Pakistan already knew that. They are laughing their asses off right now cause Mort is finally getting his due. Corruption is way of life in ALL countries (I think we call it lobbying here in the ol' US of A). They must be chuckling at the irony that what Mort was complaining about most, he was actually involved as a willing and sober participant (and it sounds like he didn't even cut his friends in Pakistan in on the deal - ohhh - wait til he goes back - can you say AWKWARD?). Life is funny that way.

Boy, Fletch, sounds like you really know all the facts, and how GM is perceived in Pakistan, etc. because why? You've read some stuff and served as a volunteer overseas. Now you're omnipotent. Amazing.
Amazing the mob mentality on here as well, based on an article or two. I'm sure Mr. Twain would get a chuckle out of this if he could witness it.
Like Buz said up above, maybe some improprieties were made, but, we all really don't know the Full Story. As a few have mentioned, 60 min. while I mostly like the program, cannot itself be held up as the bastion of clean journalism, given their record.
Anyway, just struck at how quickly people choose sides, with many hear seemingly wanting GM's head served up on the proverbial platter.
And Chief, sounds like he has come somewhat clean in that Outside interview, yet you continued to scream about him "remaining silent," etc. You admitted past mistakes, etc. and sound like you've come to a more mature, wiser place in your life. Yet, you seemingly relish in his public trial occuring here. . .
Armchair jurors. . .

Regardless of how you feel about Mortenson, the following is an interesting sidelight:
"Even President Obama was so smitten with Mortenson that he donated $100,000 of his Nobel Peace Prize money to the Bozeman, Montana-based Central Asia Institute ..." (from the Daily Beast)

dskoon wrote:.
And Chief, sounds like he has come somewhat clean in that Outside interview, yet you continued to scream about him "remaining silent," etc. You admitted past mistakes, etc. and sound like you've come to a more mature, wiser place in your life. Yet, you seemingly relish in his public trial occuring here. . .

First of all, that "OUTSIDE" interview was done over the phone and not in person.

Second of all, I relish nothing other than the fact that this dude is not being forthright and does not have the balls to confront his accusers, in person. So far, it has all been through some sort of mediator or written statements. Shows me that he so far has no character. Also shows me that he is definitely hiding behind those mediators/written statements. Each time he opens his mouth via those devices, a whole new story/ies and excuse list emerges in regards to all the accusations. As has been posted, this is nothing short of a tall tale sign of some major improprieties on his part.

Another issue that no one has yet posted here, are the ramifications of this whole gig if GM is found to be a fraud and having in fact acted financially inappropriately all at cost of the children of that region that he was supposedly helping. The Taliban will have a propaganda field day with this and it will only reinforce their ideology regarding any Westerner and their supposed compassionate ways. Yup... definitely a bigass growing concern for what the US has been trying to do over in both Pak and Afghanville if this goes down in a negative way.

Also, the head dude that GM claimed to being one of the supposed Taliban abductors, is no less than a very important and reputable key Pakistani figure. He is pissed to say the least and GM's implications may just add to the growing distaste of Americans and our over all policy in that entire region.

The big picture friends... the big picture.

This no longer is about the money for me.

I have lost three good old buddies in Afghanistan. If this issue escalates to the point that their efforts become fruitless and were all in vein, that my friends is far greater than any other reason for folks as myself and any family member or friend of any service members who gave their life over there, to be fuming and want the head of GM on a platter.

Every day folks here at home do not even understand the potential negative political and policy ramifications that this whole thing just may have if GM is in fact found to be a fraud. Even just a little bit.

Ideology and propaganda are the Taliban's greatest weapon in that region. Fact!

The Chief wrote:
"Somewhat"? Truth only comes in one manner... either it is or it isn't.

The CAI doesn't need to own anything. Rather, GM needs to own it all. It is his behavior and actions that are at the bottom of all this.

I thought my point here was clear, but I guess not. My language was imprecise. Certainly, there is either truth or "not-truth."

But there are a variety of allegations here, some more damning than others. There are gradations, and I think most people would agree with that. If the most minor of allegations are true (did he take one trip to the region in the period written about in Stones into Schools or three?), I don't really care that much. If he lied about Korphe, that's more serious. If there is misallocation of funds, that's even more damning. And if some schools simply don't exist, that's the most damning of all (to ME, personally).

My point is that if a couple of very minor problems are true, that's one thing. GM can resolve that, perhaps resign, CAI can move on and hopefully improve. Add in more transparency and an impact evaluation and better accounting practices and I would consider donating money at that point.

If the more major accusations are true, well, that's a different story.

I believe the size of the problem (misrepresentation, if you will) matters a little bit, as does the effect of that misrepresentation. I realize not everyone feels that way, so one lie is the same as all others. I'm not going to debate the ethics and philosophy of that distinction with you--you're obviously welcome to have your own opinion. This is just how I see the overall situation for GM and/or CAI.

builttospill wrote:I believe the size of the problem (misrepresentation, if you will) matters a little bit, as does the effect of that misrepresentation. I realize not everyone feels that way, so one lie is the same as all others. I'm not going to debate the ethics and philosophy of that distinction with you--you're obviously welcome to have your own opinion. This is just how I see the overall situation for GM and/or CAI.

And how do you feel about the potentially huge negative US policy ramifications in that entire region that may indeed be at bay if GM is found to be guilty in any way shape or form?

Are you aware of how the Taliban truly operates?

Fletch... you amaze me.

Are we related by chance????