I was taught to use the standard Double Fisherman's knot for joining two ropes together when rappelling. My climbing partner prefers using a square knot, commonly referred to as the "euro death knot". He much prefers this because of it's narrower profile and reasons that there is less of a chance of the ropes getting stuck. Craig Luebben in his book "Knots for Climbers" states that he also prefers the square knot for tying two ropes for rappelling, however, he says to ALWAYS back up the knot with a Double Fisherman's knot on each side. My partner says that using the backup defeats the whole purpose of using this knot in the first place (lower profile, less chance of stuck ropes). How many of you use the square knot and do you back it up?? Is not backing it up foolhardy and just waiting for disaster?? My partner seems to think that the chances of this knot coming undone is minimal enough to use it without the backup....thanks....

that's not a euro death knot, that's a square knot. the EDK is just a overhand knot
http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/200 ... -knot.html just leave 2 ft. of tails and you'll have no problems.

Previous thread.

The Figure-8 rolls more easily than the overhand and is therefore not recommended.

Knots do roll at high loads. (See the very end of the video here.) When rappelling, though, stuck ropes are by far the greater concern.

brenta wrote:Knots do roll at high loads.

Gah! The third video in that series is really unsettling; at about 50sec, you can see all the knot walking you'd ever want to see.

Thanks for the pointer to those vids, brenta.

Do what ever you feel is the safest!











But! Just wait till ya start rapping on low angled slab. Watch that DFMK get shredded and you need to chop the last 18-24" of each end of the rope.

I am a big fan of a butterfly knot to connect two ends together. It is not intuitive at first, but it unties easily like a figure 8 but it low profile like a double fisherman's.

My mistake. My partner just informed me that it's not a square knot, rather the Overhand Bend that he uses. Thanks for the link on that knot, and the answer to my question.

Aaron Dyer wrote:I am a big fan of a butterfly knot to connect two ends together. It is not intuitive at first, but it unties easily like a figure 8 but it low profile like a double fisherman's.

Me too, I quit using the double fisherman's since you have to pry the ropes apart after the knot is weighted. Butterfly with long tails is the way to go....but it is pretty hard to tie at first go.

TimmyC wrote:

brenta wrote:Knots do roll at high loads.

Gah! The third video in that series is really unsettling; at about 50sec, you can see all the knot walking you'd ever want to see.

Thanks for the pointer to those vids, brenta.

If you ever manage to put that kind of a load on a knot while climbing, you'll probably be dead before the knot breaks because something else is going to fail (your body) before that rope does.

If there's no hurry or pressure to get off a climb, I prefer the double fisherman's with a back-up. But if things are looking tense and time is crucial, the EDK is okay, again as long as there's back-up.

The EDK is the simplest of all of these, widely used and it's low profile really does help with the stuck rope situation. It's been used by thousands for years. It's the only knot I've used for raps for about 9 years. Why are people so afraid of it? Looks too simple?

mvs wrote:The EDK is the simplest of all of these, widely used and it's low profile really does help with the stuck rope situation. It's been used by thousands for years. It's the only knot I've used for raps for about 9 years. Why are people so afraid of it? Looks too simple?

No, anything called a "death knot" is going to give me pause, for certain.

I think the "death knot" name is a misnomer, americans called it that when they first saw it. but it's totaly safe if you leave long enough tails and dress the knot properly (super easy) get in the practice of using it, and keep your ropes from getting stuck.

MarthaP wrote:

mvs wrote:The EDK is the simplest of all of these, widely used and it's low profile really does help with the stuck rope situation. It's been used by thousands for years. It's the only knot I've used for raps for about 9 years. Why are people so afraid of it? Looks too simple?

No, anything called a "death knot" is going to give me pause, for certain.

Haha, I hear you. I think of the name as kind of a tongue-in-cheek dare: are you going to let the name scare you or actually consider what's in front of your eyes?

I was always taught with the EDK that you just need to leave a fairly long tail so if the knot does roll it wont come undone. If you feel uncomfortable with it just back up the EDK with another overhand knot above the first with an extended tail, it will give it a slightly greater chance of snagging but still should be fine.