MoapaPk wrote:

Montana Matt wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:However, I think the perceived erosion of SP has other factors; for example, it is much easier to post a TR via facebook now.

I've never really made use of facebook, so I don't know how it functions or how one would go about posting a TR there. But I would love to hear feedback from SP users on how to make the posting process here more streamlined (or more similar to facebook if that's what people want). The submission process hasn't had a revamp since SPv2 a few years ago now. With the much more accessible ajax libraries, it would be easier to streamline the process, I think, and it may be something that I could work on during the upcoming winter months when my schedule isn't quite so busy.

Hey Matt-- you can bulk upload photos in FB (quite easily, even see the thumbnails to choose -- a standard widget in many web applications), then the photos are presented to you, each in a long stream, with a way to edit the captions very easily. I don't like the lack of text formatting, but is so easy, and tagging "friends" in the photos is also very easy. The lack of fine control can be annoying, but one can let the captions of the photos tell most of the story. I sure wouldn't want this format for a route or mountain description. But in the iPad / ADHD age, this format is getting more popular!

I have to agree with MoapaPk about both the good and the bad of the Facebook method. Also, I think the FB format automatically downsizes pictures, though I'm not sure. People who make a lot of mountain and route pages would appreciate an uploader like that-- fast and simple-- but on the other hand, and as we've seen here already, a bulk uploader encourages a whole lot of clutter.

Buz Groshong wrote:Have no idea why you have to look down on those who use Diamox or those who use mountain guides. All people here should AT LEAST tolerate the way others have fun.

As a Registered Nurse I disagree with the CASUAL use of Diamox (and a lot of other drugs by the way) by individuals. It is my opinion/belief, I do not hold it as the way everyone should live their life (I am no god). Some people really do have a problems with acclimation, but some take it just in case, as aid. Reason I made fun of someone for being incompetent and needing a guide is because rather than proving why using Diamox casually is a good thing, that person went on to throw a personal attack at me. I was arguing for what I believe, without saying that all the people who use diamox should GTFO from SP. I tolerate all kinds of views, but it does not mean I will support them. And what is the point of having a forum if people will not talk/discuss/argue about hot topics like these? We all can agree to disagree on certain topics without throwing personal insults, no?

Fletch wrote: MoapaPk is one of the most generous and thoughtful people in the forums and I agree with most of what he says. I'm sort of shocked that someone could (or would) take such an opposing and hardline view against him. I respect guys like the Chief and Dow for their contributions as well (and their points of view and experience). And while I would normally take the side of the hikers and weekend warrior types (cause that's what I am - I have a job and a family and a dog and I like beer and football and friends and hobbies just as much as I like the mountains), i'm going to say that this site needs to cater to more climbers. Real climbers.

Well thanks. I try to be reasonable (but shouldn't post after a few beers!).

I guess I've always thought that "mountaineering" involved a lot of skills, which varied tremendously among people. Norman Clyde was not a rock climber by modern standards, but dang, he sure managed to do a lot with heavy nailed boots and a super-Chief-sized pack. The amalgamation of varied skills is an asset.

This last weekend I "led" a group up people up a few class 4 scrambles in Zion (well, DPS class 4). It turned out that the other folks were all rock climbers, and I was massively grateful for that; they stacked ropes far more quickly than I, and they didn't need to be belayed on iffy sections; all very strong and competent. And HUMBLE.

When we were descending, a group of climbers passed us. One of my group couldn't help but point out that they were slowly belaying people over the same stretch we had previously climbed free. I was quick to point out, "they are being safe; they don't know the subtle holds, and if I were in that situation, I would do the same."

The next day we topped a class 4 route, and met some very nice and strong climbers who had just taken a technical route. They asked if they could descend our way, rather than downclimb to the rappels, and we gave them as much info as we could, the most useful being, "follow our tracks, and if it seems too hard, you are off-route." We intentionally waited about 20 minutes for them to get down the first section, because of the loose rock danger. Boy they descended quickly. What nice people; what a pleasure to work cooperatively.

And that's it. People will surprise you. Don't assume that because they have different interests, they are better or inferior. I know my limits; I have brain damage, and can't remember knots at times, and that limits me to the periphery. But there are lots of things that I can do to add to the success of certain trips. But I doubt I'll ever have a desire to rock climb for the sake of rock climbing.

MoapaPk wrote: No doubt, if I ever were to describe this route on SP, I would focus more on that brief section of the approach (that turns this scramble from Hell to Nirvana) ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quZ5rE8ujcA[/youtube]

Some random remarks here...

* I loved reading knoback's trip reports and am sorry to see him go. On the other hand, I don't get the purpose of going. Why not work to enhance what you like and encourage others of like mind? When you pull your stuff and leave, you just make what you don't like gain in its market share, so to speak.

* It's no secret who the elves doing the featured pages are (I'm not one although I do fill in when I know one will be gone). Rather than take swipes at them directly or indirectly, why not use the existing threads for recommending pages or send PM?

* Right now, there are two featured pages that are technical mountain routes. At least one featured trip report involves mountaineering that included roping up even if it wasn't truly a technical climb. There is a featured article, somewhat controversial, that covers a technical route, if a Via Ferratta can truly be considered a technical climb. Another featured page is for a "big" mountain. So that's 5/12 for the "real" stuff. Every week may not be the same, but still.

* If people want to see more technical submissions, then people need to submit more of them, and quality ones. Unfortunately, SP only has a small handful of members contributing good pages on technical climbs. Anyone remember a few weeks back when some guy submitted 19 totally crap single-pitch route pages on the same day? Sadly, a lot of the technical pages that go up are of similar caliber.

* Want to see more route pages and trip reports on big walls and big peaks? I do, too. How about recommending this recent awesome job by Bruno: http://www.summitpost.org/jitan-zhoma-nw-face/750427? But the fact is, there are not a lot of submissions on big walls and big peaks. However, when Radson climbed Everest and made a trip report, it was featured, and when Alan Ellis climbed it, too, that trip report was featured as well.

* Tired of featured trip reports about well-known U.S. peaks? Me, too. However, I can tell you from my time spent filling in for those who feature the pages, the vast majority of trip reports are from the U.S. The majority of those are from California, Washington, and Colorado. And on at least one occasion when I was filling in, the selection was so weak that I featured two older trip reports instead of recent ones. When I've filled in, I've tried going for a geographical balance, but sometimes it's not possible.

* People who can climb the big peaks and the big walls are probably too busy climbing, and training in between climbs, to submit route pages and trip reports on the Internet. And if they do, they probably post them on their own sites where they can garner donations, sales, and sponsors.

* A lot of the members who get in a snit and delete their pages are those into technical climbing. Exactly how are they helping by quitting?

* Follow Scott's suggestion and sift by what you like and ignore the rest. That's always been good advice.

Cheers!

Bob Sihler wrote:* If people want to see more technical submissions, then people need to submit more of them, and quality ones. Unfortunately, SP only has a small handful of members contributing good pages on technical climbs. Anyone remember a few weeks back when some guy submitted 19 totally crap single-pitch route pages on the same day? Sadly, a lot of the technical pages that go up are of similar caliber.

And there it is.

MY last comment on this (and most of you know I've contributed nothing to this site in the way of pages), is that I've read many TR, mountain pages, route pages from both the technical side and the non. I find it all interesting. I happen to respect both aspects of this site and those that are able to get out there so much and so often and then give us all their reports. I think it was just the OP came off pretty arrogant. And as it's been mentioned, if you want more of the tech side....well get out there and produce the goods. Ironically, the guy who might have more of the technical climb pages than any Sper also has many, many of the class 1 to class 3 walk ups. Yes Dow. Such a fine contributor to both side of this site.

Fletch wrote:

Vitaliy M. wrote:Reason I made fun of someone for being incompetent and needing a guide is because rather than proving why using Diamox casually is a good thing, that person went on to throw a personal attack at me.

You have your facts crossed. You called me (and everyone else) incompentent and in need of a guide before I "attacked" you...

Dont even start to play the victim. I respect your opinions and the fact that you voice them, but your tone is incredibly condescending. Especially since, yes, you are no god. If you want to banter back and forth, then let's do it, but don't hide behind "im expressing myself" as an excuse for being a dick.

So according to you if I express my opinion on use of Diamox I am a dick? Yes, maybe my tone was dick-like and you can think that I am one. My response was triggered by a thread which in my opinion promotes casual use of this drug as ok. Yes, maybe I should have said something more constructive than 'diamox=cheating.' But after I listed reasons why *I* think using diamox is cheating in a 2nd post, you told me to get a girlfriend. That's when I told you to go get a guide to drag your ass somewhere you do not belong without one. After which as I remember your argument was again that I need a gf. Someone said I have erectile dysfunction too, which is a great and mature counter. Not rude at all.

As I remember we talked about tolerance here. I can live with you thinking I am a 'condescending dick,' it does not bother me. Although, I hope you change your opinion some day. I hope you are able to get over what I think about Diamox use as well. By the way I am not only one who has these weird views. Steve House has the same view on this subject.

To some people going to mountains is more than about "conquering the mountain." To me it is about conquering self, pushing self, and enjoying my time on the peak. I do not feel the need to take any drugs unless I NEED them in an emergency situation. If I took them I would feel as if I am not trying my best. Years later, I do not want to question myself if I could have done something without the use of performance enhancing drugs. Again, I do not think everyone has to live by MY standards, but I would like to encourage everyone to push own limits if they are trying to achieve something and feel good about it.

Fletch wrote:This is amazing... all the ususal suspects on the other side of the fence - Vitaliy defending casual hikers??? Wow. And btw, great post earlier Vitaliy - and Buz, nice comeback as well...

I thought Knoback was a bit much and at times he bordered on being an ass, but he did have great contributions and his leaving is a great loss. As Bob Burd would say, the invisible hand (so to speak) will replace his contributions in time, but there are certain folks on this site that are not replaceable in short order. MoapaPk is one of the most generous and thoughtful people in the forums and I agree with most of what he says. I'm sort of shocked that someone could (or would) take such an opposing and hardline view against him. I respect guys like the Chief and Dow for their contributions as well (and their points of view and experience). And while I would normally take the side of the hikers and weekend warrior types (cause that's what I am - I have a job and a family and a dog and I like beer and football and friends and hobbies just as much as I like the mountains), i'm going to say that this site needs to cater to more climbers. Real climbers.

Us weekend warrior types need to read about exotic places and big walls and high mountain ranges and cold places. That's what motivates us to spend our two weeks of vacation every year on some other continent chasing some experience we cant have in our offices. I'd love to be a climber full time and travel the world. But I didn't invent velcro, I dont have a trust fund, and I cant climb 5.16-whatever. So it's back to the 'ol office for me. But I gotta be honest, if I keep reading front page TR's about Mt Whitney or Longs Peak, im going to stop being a SP member. Once you've read your 50th TR about "wow, Rainier is so much harder than I thought..." I think it's safe to assume, you 'get it.' We need this site to be about something we cant do (or only a few of us can). Otherwise, there is no value-add. Show me something interesting. Show me something out of the box. Show me something that fires me up.

I realize I may be a bit off topic, but I think some of what Knoback was saying is that he's frustrated that SP seems to be becoming a watered-down version of its former self. It's lost a bit of its edge and most of the 'climbers' have moved elsewhere. Since I've been here (which isn't that long, but I've logged in every 1-3 days for the last 3 years), the site's mentality has shifted a bit from climber-types to more of the peak-bagger/trekker types. I'm ok with it, but I think the site needs to cater to more folks who want to push the site to stay edgy. Sorry for the rant.

Between, if you want cool trip reports check out supertopo. One of the people just posted a TR about doing the Nose on El Cap twice in just over 24 hours.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Nose-and-Tr ... 1215n.html
this was just posted today
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Lost-Arrow- ... 1217n.html
nose+lurking fear link up
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum ... Link-up-TR

And a lot more. Although people point out how big of a zoo supertopo is, it does have a lot more cool TRs and the forums do have a lot more life. More garbage and more useful information. Climbers like less moderation. I saw one member post a little write up with a link to his full TR about how he did a ride from Badwater and hiked to the top of Whitney in a day. I saw Bob S. commented that this type of TR is unacceptable here on SP. He did the same on supertopo, and there was a riot of posts congratulating him and talking about how cool that was. He could have been a good contribution to this site, but something tells me he will not post anything about his trips here again.

Vitaliy M. wrote:I saw one member post a little write up with a link to his full TR about how he did a ride from Badwater and hiked to the top of Whitney in a day. I saw Bob S. commented that this type of TR is unacceptable here on SP. He did the same on supertopo, and there was a riot of posts congratulating him and talking about how cool that was. He could have been a good contribution to this site, but something tells me he will not post anything about his trips here again.

Was it a TR on SuperTopo, or a thread with a link to his full TR? If the fellow had done the same thing here and posted a link to his TR in a new thread I don't think there would have been any opposition.

Here is a site suggestion... perhaps there should be a section at the end of each object submission that is editable by the users. Not all the other sections by the author, just one at the bottom. This would be a bit more integrated into the submission than the comments or corrections (which are not even visible of the main page if it is a route or mountain page). In this section people could post more visible comments, corrections, or links to their external TRs.

mrchad9 wrote:

Vitaliy M. wrote:I saw one member post a little write up with a link to his full TR about how he did a ride from Badwater and hiked to the top of Whitney in a day. I saw Bob S. commented that this type of TR is unacceptable here on SP. He did the same on supertopo, and there was a riot of posts congratulating him and talking about how cool that was. He could have been a good contribution to this site, but something tells me he will not post anything about his trips here again.

Was it a TR on SuperTopo, or a thread with a link to his full TR? If the fellow had done the same thing here and posted a link to his TR in a new thread I don't think there would have been any opposition.

It was not posted in the forum, where there would have been no issue. Instead, it was posted as a TR, with one or two sentences and a link to an off-site TR. He was asked to post it in the forum instead. There was no response, and the "page" was deleted.

Similarly, we delete "trip reports" that consist of "Check out my YouTube video" and a link to the video. Such submissions belong in the forums, not as SP content pages.

Yes, that is correct. He did the same on ST but membership of that site really responded to the content in his link, instead of deleting it. Not at all saying you should allow people to post links to their TRs all the time. But as Fletch said to bring more good content in, you have to cater to people that do climb cool stuff, and have ambitions. Maybe this time you could have welcomed him to the site and encouraged to post it as a TR or post things as an actual TR in the future. Or you will have what you have..100 whitney trail and disappointment cleaver TRs, and no Nose in a day types. Of course it is acceptable to have those, and every TR is an experience, but not as interesting as something unique.
By the way that individual summited Denali (from 14K camp) 4 days after landing on the air strip. Very strong climber. I had a chance to climb with him this summer and learned a lot.

mrchad9 wrote:

Vitaliy M. wrote:I saw one member post a little write up with a link to his full TR about how he did a ride from Badwater and hiked to the top of Whitney in a day. I saw Bob S. commented that this type of TR is unacceptable here on SP. He did the same on supertopo, and there was a riot of posts congratulating him and talking about how cool that was. He could have been a good contribution to this site, but something tells me he will not post anything about his trips here again.

Was it a TR on SuperTopo, or a thread with a link to his full TR? If the fellow had done the same thing here and posted a link to his TR in a new thread I don't think there would have been any opposition.

Here is a site suggestion... perhaps there should be a section at the end of each object submission that is editable by the users. Not all the other sections by the author, just one at the bottom. This would be a bit more integrated into the submission than the comments or corrections (which are not even visible of the main page if it is a route or mountain page). In this section people could post more visible comments, corrections, or links to their external TRs.

It would be good to have the "corrections" appear as a mandatory section right at the end of the page, also referenced in the outline at top. I've tried to incorporate corrections in my reports, and it gets awkward at time-- they don't always fit best at the end. Maybe this could be done with coding sleight-of-hand, so people can still type in a corrections section, and have it show up automatically on the page. Some discipline would be required by the elves, to distinguish corrections from nasty gripes.

But I always look for a corrections section when I'm really searching out peak info... so I wonder if we are we just trying to catch the attention of folks with ADHD?

Vitaliy M. wrote:I can live with you thinking I am a 'condescending dick,' it does not bother me. Although, I hope you change your opinion some day.

If you don't want people to think you are a "condescending dick" don't act like one. You posted an assinine condescending comment to one of my photos - why would I not think you are a "condescending dick"?

Vitaliy M. wrote:Yes, that is correct. He did the same on ST but membership of that site really responded to the content in his link, instead of deleting it. Not at all saying you should allow people to post links to their TRs all the time. But as Fletch said to bring more good content in, you have to cater to people that do climb cool stuff, and have ambitions. Maybe this time you could have welcomed him to the site and encouraged to post it as a TR or post things as an actual TR in the future. Or you will have what you have..100 whitney trail and disappointment cleaver TRs, and no Nose in a day types. Of course it is acceptable to have those, and every TR is an experience, but not as interesting as something unique.
By the way that individual summited Denali (from 14K camp) 4 days after landing on the air strip. Very strong climber. I had a chance to climb with him this summer and learned a lot.

ST is organized very differently from SummitPost. You know that. I don't feel like going around and around about this, so you can have the last say. You seem to be looking past the fact that I did try communicating to the member. I explained the site policy, encouraged him to post his link in the forum, and said it was no reflection on the quality of the trip report itself. Site policy that SoCal and I follow is usually to try contacting the submitter of a weak or inappropriate page and then give time for a response. Only in hopeless cases do we just delete outright. Since I never heard back from the guy after a few days, I deleted the report. It's also the responsibility of the submitter to see what site expectations are and not entirely up to site management. It isn't that hard to do, which is why a lot of members get really frustrated with bad submissions. Some get it right away, others learn, some never seem to get it, and some seem to get it but can't be bothered to make the effort.

We delete bad hiking pages and bad climbing pages alike. You seem to be suggesting that better climbers should get some kind of pass when it comes to submission standards. Others would argue that people of all ability levels ought to follow the same standards or contribute their experience and knowledge in the forums. Just because you liked the subject of that trip report doesn't mean it should be an exception. I thought the trip report, the off-site one, was good as well. Unfortunately, the member didn't respond.