- How about when some stooges put up a route in a well established Trad Area and then bolt up a perfectly good and safely protectable crack or flake, regardless of reason.

- When someone comes along and adds them to an existing Trad route all because they are totally incapable of completing the route on the merits of their own abilities.

I say CHOP when these two scenarios become reality.

In my opinion:
1) When the bolts are unsafe or poorly placed.
2) When a group of those with the authority and credibility to make that call agree it's best for the route and the public.
3) After consultation with the person/people responsible for placing the bolt (if possible) and after some community debate on the matter.

howiemtnguide wrote:In my opinion:
2) When a group of those with the authority and credibility to make that call agree it's best for the route and the public.

Who determines that... the group themselves after they create an abortion?

I tend to agree with The Chief on this matter. For example if someone showed up at one of my favorite traditional climbing areas (The Needles, Tahquitz/Suicide, Joshua Tree, Rincon etc.,) and placed bolts where gear is good I would be, well let’s just say, extremely exercised about it.

Sometimes though it’s not so simple. For example some troglodyte placed 6 bolts in 50 feet on an old 5.10+ crack up at Courtright called Cradle Will Rock. I was flabbergasted and wanted to chop them pronto. Problem is they are Petzl Long Life “tamper proof” bolts, and the mess which would be left behind after their removal would be unacceptable. In other words the climb is ruined either way.

Which brings me to the point: Since it is obviously weak to succumb to the idea that a climb is better if one does not need to carry a rack, lets just all agree not to bolt where bolts are not needed and that way avoid situations like the one at Courtright where a nice climb is spoiled forever.

This whole idea that you don’t need to clip the bolts if you don’t want to if absurd. My choice is simply to avoid climbing such routes. So from my perspective the bolters are depriving capable tradional climbers of a route. Of course Bill Leventhal’s remarkable ascent of The Prescription, at The Needles, without clipping the chicken bolts added post FA made quite a statement too. But he meant it as that – a statement.

howiemtnguide wrote:In my opinion:
1) When the bolts are unsafe or poorly placed.
2) When a group of those with the authority and credibility to make that call agree it's best for the route and the public.
3) After consultation with the person/people responsible for placing the bolt (if possible) and after some community debate on the matter.

1) Replace them.

2) Best for the public? That’s a slippery slope – somehow doesn’t surprise me though coming from a professional guide. Seriously – no offense meant, but 99% of the new “convenience” anchors in Josh and Idyllwild have been placed to assist guiding. Thank God no one guides at The Needles (clients don’t like thast hike in I guess.)

3) I’ve seen this scenario play out for example Schwarzenegger Wall in Josh. I think the outcome was negative for climbers, and set a precedent for the debacle at Cave Rock.

Most excellent post Kris!

The idea of bolting a route or area just for the sake of Public Safety, supposedly, makes me cringe and motivates me to sharpen the Tuning Fork and Crow Bar. I think that your guiding assumption may just be another sad reality as well.

Seems that is what prevails in the Alps these days. Sadly, this is what is becoming evident on Everest as well after the recent bolt additions on the Yellow Band. The excuse of rock quality and safety was the premise. Yet, the individual only placed some 3" X 3/8" SS bolts....hmmmmm!

If the rock quality at that altitude was such a danger to climbers, one would think that a minimum of a 6" X 1/2" SS bolt would be utilized.

When they are installed with a power drill.

Power drills have no place on a climbing rack in a civilized world.

It can take nature up to a million years to erase that hole. They should only be made with a strong understanding and craftsmanship.

ksolem-
I was in the needles of socal around the end of july this last summer and there was a slackline set up in between two of the towers, (upper left of photo http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo ... 1186393944
this is right below charlston needle)
we talked to the ranger and she said that it was put up by a nonlocal group of climbers. did the bolts get pulled out or is this still up?

Let me start by saying I've never climbed a sport or trad route, so please don't take this as anything more than an ignorant question.

When someone bolts a trad route, it can still be climbed as a trad route, albeit the "scars", correct? In other words, just because the bolts are there, you don't have to clip them, right? So when you say that the route is "ruined", it's not that it can no longer be climbed in the traditional manner, you more or less mean that it's defaced. Or are there times when someone bolts a route that it physically interferes with the trad climber?

Again, don't take this in the wrong way, I'm simply curious!

aemter wrote:Let me start by saying I've never climbed a sport or trad route, so please don't take this as anything more than an ignorant question.

When someone bolts a trad route, it can still be climbed as a trad route, albeit the "scars", correct? In other words, just because the bolts are there, you don't have to clip them, right? So when you say that the route is "ruined", it's not that it can no longer be climbed in the traditional manner, you more or less mean that it's defaced. Or are there times when someone bolts a route that it physically interferes with the trad climber?

Again, don't take this in the wrong way, I'm simply curious!

Lets say you are climbing an obscure peak in the hopes of getting away from other people and the trash they leave. Would you like to see oxygen bottles, spray paint, coke cans....


Now lets say you are climbing said peak by a technical route. Do you want to be reminded every five feet that someone has climbed this line before. If a route can be climbed without leaving any bolts, slings, pitons then that is much prefered than seeing all this trash out in nature.

Some lines are not protectable by means other than bolts, a slab would be an example of this. As a climber I do not mind finding a bolt here or there when I need one, but I would much rather be a little ran out then find one every three feet especially when there is a perfect pro placement right next to it.

If it can be protected by means other than a bolt one should never be placed there.

As far as rappel anchors go I would much rather see a sling that I can replace and a rap ring I can reuse than a bolted anchor, but as The Chief has said in multiple threads if it is a peak that gets lots of traffic then a series of bolted rappel stations speeds up a retreat and makes the backcountry a much safer and cleaner place (some people need to learn to pack out webbing when they come across it).

norco17 wrote:

aemter wrote:Let me start by saying I've never climbed a sport or trad route, so please don't take this as anything more than an ignorant question.

When someone bolts a trad route, it can still be climbed as a trad route, albeit the "scars", correct? In other words, just because the bolts are there, you don't have to clip them, right? So when you say that the route is "ruined", it's not that it can no longer be climbed in the traditional manner, you more or less mean that it's defaced. Or are there times when someone bolts a route that it physically interferes with the trad climber?

Again, don't take this in the wrong way, I'm simply curious!

Lets say you are climbing an obscure peak in the hopes of getting away from other people and the trash they leave. Would you like to see oxygen bottles, spray paint, coke cans....


Now lets say you are climbing said peak by a technical route. Do you want to be reminded every five feet that someone has climbed this line before. If a route can be climbed without leaving any bolts, slings, pitons then that is much prefered than seeing all this trash out in nature.

Some lines are not protectable by means other than bolts, a slab would be an example of this. As a climber I do not mind finding a bolt here or there when I need one, but I would much rather be a little ran out then find one every three feet especially when there is a perfect pro placement right next to it.

If it can be protected by means other than a bolt one should never be placed there.

As far as rappel anchors go I would much rather see a sling that I can replace and a rap ring I can reuse than a bolted anchor, but as The Chief has said in multiple threads if it is a peak that gets lots of traffic then a series of bolted rappel stations speeds up a retreat and makes the backcountry a much safer and cleaner place (some people need to learn to pack out webbing when they come across it).

norco17,
Thanks for the explanation. I certainly understand your position. There will always be philosophical arguments about the wild and how wild it should remain.

My number one belief.....


If the line was established (don't care how long ago it was) and you failed to do YOUR homework on the intended route you think you're FAing:

CHIPPITY CHOP!!

knoback wrote: The tuningfork and hammer do alot of damage and often do change the climbing.

That is why we have this stuff in our arsenal. Mix it up with some of the grit/dirt that is carried in a little bag and then plug the hole. No one ever knows the bolt was there...




Besides, if the original route had no bolts, the bolts will not be missed now will they? The route is returned to it's original form and intended line.

The Chief wrote:- How about when some stooges put up a route in a well established Trad Area and then bolt up a perfectly good and safely protectable crack or flake, regardless of reason.

- When someone comes along and adds them to an existing Trad route all because they are totally incapable of completing the route on the merits of their own abilities.

I say CHOP when these two scenarios become reality.

For the first example:

No. If the stooges got to it before you..... it's been tagged. Unless you are going to go from "the Chief" to being the "The Judge"

For the second.

Yes. It's your duty.

SpiderSavage wrote:When they are installed with a power drill.

Power drills have no place on a climbing rack in a civilized world.

It can take nature up to a million years to erase that hole. They should only be made with a strong understanding and craftsmanship.

So what's so wrong with a power drill?

It's just a tool just like a gun.

Blame the user not the tool for any wrong doing.

gk

So you are saying that regardless of the local ethics, if the "stooges" come along and rap bolt a route in an established trad area, they then are protected by your "they tagged it" rule?

All this regardless of the local standards?