Bob Burd wrote:Do others have strong feelings about this one way or another?

Call me Old Skool, but I think using a GPS for primary nav is stoopid. Er, makes you stoopid.

Hey, you asked.

Map and compass, baby. GPS for backup if you desire.

I was a professional navigator, and I've navigated all over the North America, the Pacific Ocean, Bering Sea, Indian Ocean, Africa, Europe and the Atlantic with a map & compass. We didn't even have GPS back then.

During the early days of GPS about 25 years ago, I had job in Space Command tracking the GPS satellites and running daily manual differential calculations to calibrate the satellite orbits. Basically, my daily math determined the accuracy of all GPS units in use at the time.

Funny, 25 years later... and I've never needed a GPS.
Never owned a GPS.
Never used a GPS.

oLd SkOoL LEdGe RaT

I have had gps units put us ten miles in the wrong direction while riding through the desert on dirtbikes. Almost made us run out of gas in the middle of the mojave. I have never been lost with a map. Maps will always be more dependable.

I love maps and have bins of them but after years of talking about it we couldn't pass up the Garmin eTrex 30x bundle at REI for $199. I've got a week in AZ to play with it over Thanksgiving so we'll see how it goes. My altimeter watch being on the fritz had a lot to do with the decision. The cave man in me says, "more gear...good."

Good to know so many people here use both maps and GPSs. I've been doing that myself for a number of years, and always felt embarrassed that I've not been able to fully jump into the 21st century way of doing things. Well, may be I continue carrying both for a while longer.

I only skimmed this thread so maybe this was already mentioned. If you want to print a waterproof map you can buy "adventure paper". It's come from nat geo, it's supposed to be waterproof and pretty durable and is made for use with inkjet printers. It's also kind of expensive but you can find other waterproof paper without the name on it for a little cheaper that would probably work just as well.

My thinking is, if you learn how to use a map and compass as you ( Bob Burd) obviously did long time ago, GPS is a great tool. The thing is, you are at home in the mountains and the GPS just expands on your knowledge and ability. That is great...

I think that those new to the mountains would really be served well to learn map and compass use first. Everything else is so much easier once you are aware of your surroundings...I use GPS for work almost every week and it is a wonderful tool. But every once in a while, I revert to maps and even compass...

The other day Pen and I were working on the PCT at Onyx Summit here in Southern California and the tree cover was so thick, the GPS was useless. We had to use the map. Glad we know how to use it.

But obviously, GPS is the next (huge) step up in navigation.

Grew up on maps but I got a GPS about 10 years ago. It worked, and I used it a lot, but I never got used to the little screen and found it unreliable in heavy forest, near big walls and in canyons. I lost it on the trail after several years of use and replaced it with an altimeter watch. An altimeter with compass plus a topo map is all I use now. So glad to be back to real maps.

asmrz wrote:The other day Pen and I were working on the PCT at Onyx Summit here in Southern California and the tree cover was so thick, the GPS was useless. We had to use the map. Glad we know how to use it.

Is it an old model? I get a good signal on the first floor of my 2-story home.

Even with my 2002 model Magellan ST Pro, I got good signals under heavy tree cover in the Adirondacks (where thick tree cover is the rule). It is useful to wear the GPS high on your body -- the GPS receives signals in the microwave range, and the signals are attenuated by water. Yes, foliage is mainly water, but a person leaning over a GPS can really compromise the signal.

And sometimes by chance, there are just few satellites to see "at the moment."

Usually I use phone apps. They are generally free provided that you have a smartphone. However, do bring along a portable charger and a physical map in case the phone runs out of battery,

I believe in redundancy. I carry two or more copies of hard copy maps. I have access to a copier that can print 11 x 17, so I might print at a couple different scales from Caltopo. I make sure to print with the UTM grid which I then label through-out the map, so no matter how the map is folded I can see the coordinates. I mark the route with yellow highlighter and then fold these to the appropriate area inside large zip lock bags. My working copy of the map is in my pocket with a compass for easy access. Extra map and compass are in the pack as are extra batteries for my GPS, headlamp & phone charger. The GPS is in a pouch on my front pack strap. My GPS already has topo for my home area loaded. If I go elsewhere in the US or Canada I can download the Garmin compatible file from Caltopo. Not sure if he has other countries available yet.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize leaving the printed map behind. Even if GPSs never failed or gave bogus readings, they can get dropped or lost. There's also no pretending the small screen suffices for really challenging navigation. I use both the UTM coordinates and the map view to place me on the hard copy map I carry with me. If you're just following a conga line up a path, then you'll probably be okay. But if you are actually having to navigate, then the GPS becomes more than a neat toy that gives you interesting trivia.

I've done hundreds of hikes over that last few decades in a variety of conditions. I've had a map blow out of my hand in high wind during a white out - fortunately I knew the area well enough to make a critical turn when we needed. I had a compass fail during a mid-winter blowing snow white-out. Fortunately I had another compass in my pack. I had my GPS screen take a hit from a rock one time I took my pack off. Fortunately it was a nice day in an area I knew well.

You mentioned being a scout leader. In the US people have been sued for less than getting lost with minors they were responsible for. I look at weight & bulk verses the likelihood of needing something and the possible consequences of not having it. Not only do I prefer having a map & compass with me along with the GPS, they weigh less than the spare batteries I make sure I have for the GPS. I can't eliminate all the possible things that might go wrong in the back country. But I can be pretty sure getting lost isn't one of them.

I have never used a GPS, not trying to put them down or anything like that. I must admit though that it is tempting to get one now that they show you where you are on the map. I have always used a map and compass. One thing I do that is a little different is this: I sometimes take photos of my map before I leave home, since I always carry a digital camera, that way I have another backup, photos (of the topo map)in my camera that I'm going to bring with me anyways. This works great on short hikes, just take a macro shot of the map area you will be travelling, and you have your "map" which will not be ripped out of your hands in the wind.
I have never gotten lost in 25 years, although once I was uncertain of my location in the S. Sierra in the heavy forest. The solution was to ascend the nearest hill to get a view from above the trees and then it was easy to determine which way to go. To me the digital camera was the better invention than the GPS, remember the old days of paying $7.99 (back when gas was a buck and developing my photos cost almost as much as driving to Lone Pine) to develop 24 photos half of which did not turn out well? This Luddite quickly adopted the digicam, but I have not yet gotten on the GPS bandwagon.

I never used a GPS and I'm glad that I may never have to. For the first time in my life I got a cell phone recently and can use it like a GPS (the map used for testing). Had to precache the location of course and leave the browser open on airplane mode. The two main downsides to the cell phone method is that it weighs more (4.5 oz) and is slightly risky in the case of hitting the back button (might as well be a self destruct button). When testing in the alpine for the first time I accidentally hit the back button which clears the cached map. Fortunately it wasn't a big deal.

The next step would be to get an app that records where I've been (tracking) and allow waypoints. I could then have a predefined path (or download it) and then see if my tracks match up for getting precise locations. At that point I'll be completely set in terms of GPS. The other perks is that I can use it as an alarm, treat it like a point and shoot, and have other valuable climbing information stored on it. Now if only it could do long range radio for multi pitch in windy weather. I'm pretty sure it can do short range via Bluetooth.

It's interesting that you freeze your question "Maps versus GPS".

Maybe a better way to think of it is maps and GPS.

There are some well-informed post above, and we can see that there is a wide range of opinion on this.

I think a good rule of thumb is you should never rely completely on an electronic device for wilderness navigation.
Batteries can fail, stuff breaks, etc.

Having the four main navigation tools of map, compass, altimeter, and GPS, and knowing how to use them, as in the long run going to be your best approach.

Smart phone wilderness GPS applications that come a LONG way.

Probably the best one out there is Gaia GPS.
It's $20, lets you download a variety of different map layers when you have cell or Wi-Fi connection for use when you are out of cell coverage.
If you already are carrying your phone with you anyway, why not have a GPS app on it?

Here is a nice tutorial video on how to use it.
Search YouTube for Columbia river orienteering club, or go right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi4aUEQj7vU