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Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:46 pm

Oh wait!


There's more ill use of the old Quick Draw!


These Brit and Swiss "Alpine" & "Trad" Climbing blokes are way outta line as well. And not one of em has spent much if any time in a "GYM":
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Oh the travesty!
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:56 pm

Shet! This is basically the University of Phoenix of Climbing!

I guess I'll be leaving my runners at home from now own.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:55 pm

but there are documented cases of multiple pieces zippering because of bad techniques that are perfectly fine on a sport climb


Please do cite one "documented" instance where the primary cause of "zippering" was that of a "Dog Bone Quick Draw" being attached to a TCU/FCU or a wired Stopper.


Also, please do tell us what is the difference between clipping into an attached "Dog Bone Quick Draw" and directly into a sewn "runner" that is part of the TCU/FCU that is no different in design:
Image
Image
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:21 am

Image

I showed this picture to my old climbing buddy, and he said

"hey, that's pretty cool"
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:47 am

Burchey wrote:Image

I showed this picture to my old climbing buddy, and he said

"hey, that's pretty cool"



I'm trying to figure out why just because lots of people do something, people automatically assume it's right? Look, some of your pics are straight jacked up. I see multiple draws linked together with wire gate carabiners? Remind me to never climb with you idiots. Rope lines that look like a fricken lightning bolt....idiocy. If you can't figure out the difference between clipping to a full length runner attached to a CAM and a dogbone draw attached to the dog bone on the cam.....again, not climbing with you. The double full length is twice as pliable and lightens the torque that can be applied against a cam.....especially when numbnuts like yourself are dragging the rope up the rock like a drunk Labrador. Like I said, this whole thing was in reference to new trad climbers who are much more like to place a piece that is susceptible to walking, so yeah, it makes a difference. If you know how to place gear very well....then move along little man.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:05 am

WyomingSummits wrote: Look, some of your pics are straight jacked up. I see multiple draws linked together with wire gate carabiners? Remind me to never climb with you idiots. Rope lines that look like a fricken lightning bolt....idiocy.



Ah, those are not my photos.

They belong to this "idiot":
Image

http://www.alpineexposures.com/blogs/ch ... conditions

Along with the rest of his "idiot" French, British and Swiss friends and partners. One of which that is pictured in the above series of "idiocy" is no other than this "idiot":

Image



And you are who again?


Also, you did not answer my question regarding the documented instances of "zippering". Please do give a ref for this claim.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:33 am

Classic.....posting pictures of other people climbing. Fricken internet cowboys. I'll get some links on here shortly. Oh....and since when does someone being a world class climber mean that what they are doing is the safest method? If you'd like, I can give you dozens of examples of death due to complacency.....but you probably know them all since you're on the inet all day long reading about climbing and looking up pictures of other people climbing to harass someone putting up a well meaning post.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby norco17 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:35 am

Hey Wyoming why not start a thread saying when to extend and when not to extend your placements that way these n00bs can learn rather than just spreading a bunch of bad information. The words "never" and "always" are often wrong.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:48 am

I can give you dozens of examples of death due to complacency.


How about you just give us one for this particular OP. Just one.

I also challenge you to tell John Long, Bob Gaines and a slew of others that have been at this game longer than you have been on this planet, that they too are complacent "idiots" for publishing beginners "How To Climb" books that have sold millions, to do just what you state not to.

Along with the other refs I posted. They too are all idiots, correct?



PS: Double/Twin Rope technique is a whole different enchilada there Wyoming.
Last edited by Kahuna on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:51 am

norco17 wrote:Hey Wyoming why not start a thread saying when to extend and when not to extend your placements that way these n00bs can learn rather than just spreading a bunch of bad information. The words "never" and "always" are often wrong.


I agree with the "never" and "always".....that's the puzzling part. These hacks seem to think that I was saying you can NEVER clip to a dogbone draw without the placement walking out. I thought I was clearly directing this toward gym and sport climbers who are venturing out into trad world and may not be placing perfect gear every time. Then I get accused of talking down to climbers, claiming that I think you can never clip a dogbone on a trad route, I don't know what a fricken Yates screamer is. Blah blah blah....a buncha wannbe's with too much time on welfare and little dingy's. A man can't even put up a well meaning post trying to enhance some new trad climbers safety without the douchebags coming out of the woodwork. Of course it's all over this forum.... And the most ironic part? How is it WORSE to use a doubled full length runner? It's not like I was giving advice that's going to get someone killed.....it's perfectly safe!
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:55 am

WyomingSummits wrote:... I don't know what a fricken Yates screamer is.


Well that answers that. Nuff said on the source of this thread.

And where is that documented cited ref to back up your claim???


When was the last time you utilized the Double/Twin rope technique, properly?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:04 am

FOTH page 240. "Runners are used to isolate rope movement from the protection, keeping protection from wiggling or walking from it's intended placement, and also helps minimize friction or rope drag on the climbing rope". Yeah, Freedom of the Hills obviously meant "dogbone sport climbing draws" when they said "runners". Moron. And yeah, I understand twin and double rope technique.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby mattyj » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:10 am

Kahuna wrote:Please do cite one "documented" instance where the primary cause of "zippering" was that of a "Dog Bone Quick Draw" being attached to a TCU/FCU or a wired Stopper.


It's often hard to look at an accident involving pulled gear and know for sure what the "primary cause" was - walking, initial poor placement, etc. So I'm sure you'll say this doesn't meet your ironic-misuse-of-quotes standard for "documented" or primary, but to quote ANAM 2003, p. 95:

This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear, and though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. The fact that the top cam pulled indicates that it was either placed incorrectly or walked into an insecure position, which is possible since he clipped all of his protection with short, stiff quickdraws.


Surely you don't actually think that sling length/stiffness has zero correlation to gear walking, especially on wandering pitches?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:13 am

WyomingSummits wrote:FOTH page 240. "Runners are used to isolate rope movement from the protection, keeping protection from wiggling or walking from it's intended placement, and also helps minimize friction or rope drag on the climbing rope". Yeah, Freedom of the Hills obviously meant "dogbone sport climbing draws" when they said "runners". Moron. And yeah, I understand twin and double rope technique.


NO.... the ref where you stated:

WyomingSummits wrote: but there are documented cases of multiple pieces zippering because of bad techniques that are perfectly fine on a sport climb.


Let's see em.

mattyj wrote:Surely you don't actually think that sling length/stiffness has zero correlation to gear walking, especially on wandering pitches?


This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear, and though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. The fact that the top cam pulled indicates that it was either placed incorrectly or walked into an insecure position, which is possible since he clipped all of his protection with short, stiff quickdraws.



When CAMS WALK, they go inward into the crack and never outward. Their basic design principal prevents them from walking outward.

Now if the CAM failed due to flaring into the open "passive" position which many modern cams are designed to be used in, then that is a far different issue. That then needs to be addressed with the manufacture of said CAM if it in fact was designed to take a load in the open "Passive" position and then it failed when it did.

But it didn't. It "pulled" and now where in that ANAM evaluation does it specifically state that it "walked out" and then "pulled". Again, CAMS do not walk outward. It is impossible due to their basic design.

And to add to the ANAM investigation of Kropps incident:
Another scenario is that Kropp dislodged the piece himself by kicking it with his feet as he climbed past it.


BTW, "Air Guitar" is a 65' vertical .10a crack with absolutely no wander of the rope.
Last edited by Kahuna on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:25 am

Kahuna wrote:
WyomingSummits wrote:... I don't know what a fricken Yates screamer is.


Well that answers that. Nuff said on the source of this thread.

And where is that documented cited ref to back up your claim???


When was the last time you utilized the Double/Twin rope technique, properly?


English has to be your second language. I started that series of "things I was being accused of"....one of which was not knowing what a Yates screamer is. Of course I know what it is. It's designed to minimize forces on gear during a lead fall. And yes, I've utilized a double rope technique when trying to minimize a possible pendulum for my belayer. Any other questions? I've trad led on 3 continents for 26 yrs you inet jockey.
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