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mvs - Dec 17, 2010 7:26 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Well written...Wow I really appreciate your comments, which include an embedded story that I can completely visualize. We also topped out at sunset on that route years ago...it was a great and eye-opening climb.
PellucidWombat - Nov 16, 2011 2:43 pm - Voted 10/10
I Can RelateGreat article! I had no idea you had such hesitations with exposure considering what you climb these days.
I think I've been bypassing the soloing fear by going more technical and getting used to the exposure & building confidence with my technique with the safety of a rope. Now I'm finding myself getting more and more comfortable soloing the easier stuff. I still say I wouldn't want to solo too much in exposed terrain, but there is growing pressure as a number of the long ridge routes in the Sierra require it to avoid a multi-day ascent.
mvs - Nov 16, 2011 3:27 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: I Can RelateHey glad you liked it! I think this is the modern path: hiking, technical rock climbing, and only then the sort of exposed, alpine scrambling and even soloing that used to come before overtly technical stuff. I wrote the article just to see if others might have felt the same way...a bit perplexed that this "middle ground" feels more uncertain and dangerous than harder stuff.
Overall I think a well-rounded alpinist needs to be able to solo moderate 5th class, if only as a tool that comes into play rarely. At any rate, it's nice to feel completely at home on 4th class terrain...
Have fun on those long ridges!
alpine345 - Jan 13, 2012 12:53 am - Hasn't voted
ProgressionI've picked up the feeling, from the article, the responses,and my own experience that people go through a progression in their climbing as they mature and become more experienced. This is illustrated every time I try to explain class I - V to a n00b. I and II are easy to teach/understand but when they start to ask about III and IV, I say "lets put on a rope and I'll teach you some skills, first. Then we'll come back to those" Because invariably, on the first really exposed IV, when their eyes get as big as saucers, they're really glad to know what to do...THEN it clicks for them that the rope is to protect them while they're learning and practicing and acquiring skills and getting comfortable with exposure. THEN they're ready to learn to use class V moves and mental processes on class III and IV and all of a sudden it becomes easy and fun and not terror. I think the "middle ground" is the test because it requires the full set of skills(well not big wall)to move safely and efficiently. One foot on dirt, one foot on snow, one hand on rock, the other...who knows? Who cares! Lets go climb!
mvs - Jan 13, 2012 2:13 am - Hasn't voted
Re: ProgressionHi Alpine345 that is the case indeed! It's like, you need a toolkit of actual technical climbing skills from grade V in order to feel secure on III and IV (among other skills). Thanks for the insightful comment, which lends perspective and depth to the whole topic.
alpine345 - Jan 24, 2012 12:24 am - Hasn't voted
Re: ProgressionRight you are. I was indeed using YDS class references. I just got sloppy with the syntax...lo siento mucho
alpine345 - Jan 25, 2012 12:29 am - Hasn't voted
Re: ProgressionYep, I've rafted and kayaked off and on since the '70s...
pookster1127 - Feb 8, 2013 9:21 am - Hasn't voted
Great reflectionsIt is so true that those who are trained in climbing gyms with strict protocall for safety have yet to develop the appreciation for the calculated risk of 3rd and 4th class climbing. Experience is such a good teacher. Each person evaluates risk from their past climbs. The problem is that the lessons "taught" may not allow a climber to return. I wonder how many actually are injured or die because of unprotected scrambles??
mvs - Nov 8, 2013 7:51 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Great reflectionsIndeed. And yes, it is a serious business.
Sarah Simon - Nov 7, 2013 4:24 pm - Voted 10/10
My favorite quote"Venturing onto steep rock was like doing repairs outside the space shuttle."
Fantastic, love it!
Sarah
Garon Coriz - Nov 15, 2013 2:29 am - Voted 10/10
Sleep Deprived RantingsGreat read! I'm a little tired from a 15-hour workday and just couldn't help but barf all over this thread. There are so many questions as to why we do the things we do and how comfortable we are while doing them. I often ask myself who am I as a mountaineer? This is one of the key topics that have rolled around in my head through the years. Over the course of a lifetime, is it more common for a mountaineer to venture from 3rd/4th class terrain into 5th class roped climbs or the other way 'round? There are sport climbers that fall in love with scrambling mountain adventures, and peakbaggers that dive into the roped, vertical world to attain more difficult summits. I often wonder about the patterns to it all from what effect the surrounding mountains and climbing community play on the growth and development of a fledging mountaineer. Do the volcanos of the Pacific Northwest breed a different type of mountaineer than the deserts of Arizona and New Mexico? In Utah, a lot of weight is placed on what type of climber a person is - sport, TRAD, ice, scrambler, hiker boulderer, skier, and more. Do people that start off on crappy 3rd/4th class terrain value the aesthetic and spiritual experience of the mountains more? Is it the individuals that start from sport/bouldering that value more the difficulty, feel, and movement on the rock? Are we more true to the idea of mountaineering if we can be comfortable on 4th class terrain? I'm not really sure about any answers for these questions, but I will leave you with this. While on Grosse Zinne during the downclimb and rappels, guys who had climbed the stiff north face were shaking with fear and moving embarassingly slow. I respected their successful climb of that route, but I found it completely odd that they should be so out of place in the mountains while unroped - I have to admit, though I was a far weaker climber, I felt somehow superior. Yet, this was only after a couple climbs with you, MVS, when I was the trembling pika on the rocks high on Sella Tower.
mvs - Nov 18, 2013 8:21 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Sleep Deprived RantingsStream-of-consciousness defined! I also notice the arbitrary way people value one kind of mountain experience over another, and the way what you value affects what you are capable of.
In this debate I can see the true requirements of the mountain shimmering behind our different value systems. The problem of "4th class" is illustrative, showing up as a border between modes of travel, alternately denigrated as trivial or regarded as very risky.
In fact, it seems to fall into a category which shouldn't be discussed. For example, you'll find a dozen books about rope technique and hiking technique. But many fewer about this "gray zone" in between, and the author is tempted to refer you (very unhelpfully, I think) to a professional guide service. If you were willing to use a guide service to learn mountain skills you probably wouldn't be searching so diligently for information on this mode of travel! So that's why I wanted to talk about it.
I wished I'd gone with you guys on the Grosse Zinne climb, that was truly a classic way up and down, a real school on this kind of travel! Your desire got you over these problems quicker than most! (took me longer!)
JRB - Nov 15, 2013 2:22 pm - Voted 10/10
Glad this got featured againMy son showed me this article when he commented in February this year. I must admit after many years of climbing I have not progressed from my reluctance of 3rd and 4th class terrain. I am with you in that I would rather be tethered to a rope, however sketchy the protection. False confidence somehow makes it all better.
I read the TRs from some SP members and note that time and experience seems to help overcoming the mental obstacles. Some of their pics cause me to break out in sweat.
This summer we are planning a trip to climb the Grand in Wyoming and the easier routes cause me more pause than some of the tougher technical climbing. I'll check back after we spend most of the day with wild exposure and the rope in our backpack.
I can say that falls from 3rd and 4th class terrain make up a large percentage of serious injuries from the stats I have seen.
Be safe and thanks for such a well written article.
mvs - Nov 18, 2013 8:26 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Glad this got featured againThanks JRB. Your perspective is realistic yet you are willing to engage and learn ever more. Teewinot is a great one for hours in 3rd/4th class, unsuitable for belaying. My personal talisman there was to have rock shoes in my pack, which I knew I could use on solo downclimbs if I'd gotten myself into the wrong terrain. Maybe I had a sling or two as well. You really are on your own much more, which is both a negative and a positive. Let's call it an "enlarger" of the experience :^). Have fun out there!
CEIGE - Aug 3, 2015 10:33 pm - Voted 10/10
Excellent articleAs someone who really is new to climbing and just beginning to tackle the class 3-4, I find this article refreshing. My experience last week, I got a really good dose of class 4 and possibly some easy sections of 5, and though scary at the time, and will be scary in the future, it was a blast. Now class 2-3 just sound boring. Getting in to unroped climbing, I have really learned that you can't expect safety, comfort, or ease. It really is all about facing fears and thinking things through, and coming to terms that you are going to have to deal with that fear if this is what you really want to do.
Thanks for a great read and easily understood thoughts.
mvs - Aug 17, 2015 4:20 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Excellent articleThanks for your comment! Yeah, there isn't that much talk about this terrain...I wanted to fill in what seemed like a hole in our conversation. If you look at accident reports, this overlooked terrain level accounts for a lot of the trouble. In general, dudes tweaking a 5.12a crimp don't fall in an unsafe way. This branch of terrain requires the most real embrace of the paradox of climbing precisely because it's immune to our technology.