Mainly, I was making a pointed comment on the same thing others have mentioned, which was the slightly condescending/dismissive tone you have used not only in this thread, but in a couple others, in response to honest, real questions from others. .
But, whatever. Jmo. Take it for what it's worth. . . I don't want to derail a good thread any further.

Ditto, pretty much my jist.

What are some ‘Full Value’ routes that you feel are ‘undervalued’ or don’t get the traffic they deserve?

By this definition, I really don't see why V should be mocking Dirk's opinion on Tenaya Pk. It is an easy route, easy to approach, and featured in SuperTopo, but it is also a very nice route and doesn't see as much traffic as other routes in the area (e.g. West Crack gridlock, N Face of Fairview clusterfun), so by this definition, I don't see why you feel that you have to mock it. It is a great beginner lead or a nice half-day route to do as a chill climb or a harder simul or solo. Easy approach, clean rock, fairly long, wonderful views, and an easy descent. Plus a dip in Tenaya Lake and hanging out on the beach on hour way back. What more could you ask for?

Jamcrack is not full a full value route that is undervalued - too many people are on it!

I'd second V's inclusion of the full traverse of Matthes, N to S. I climbed Matthes, twice, once as the standard many people do to the summit, and again later for the entire traverse including south of the summit. The standard route is crowded and, while fun for scrambling and simul-climbing, not that interesting from a technical climbing perspective. The sections south of the summit are really great, though, and don't see nearly the traffic.

I'll throw in some Yosemite Valley trad routes, as I've been doing more exploring in the Reid guide and have found some very nice climbs that none of my climbing friends have heard of, but rank among some of my favorite climbs there:

- Iota Chimney



- Pat & Jack Pinnacle (5.7 that will humble you - approach pitch sucks but is worth it)

Photo by Vitaliy. Annotations by the Wombat.

- Inner Reaches

Photo by Vitaliy

- The Remnant, Right Side

Photo by Nic

- Tweedle Dee (5.8 )

(from the Roper Guide: "a 100 ft, flared, overhanging chimney"). It was a fun workout!


Pushy pushy



Keep in mind that all of these require large cams (or no gear as not even Big Bros are wide enough). These used to be more popular, so I'd say they're great climbs of a type of climbing that is no longer fashionable.

By this definition, I really don't see why V should be mocking Dirk's opinion on Tenaya Pk. It is an easy route, easy to approach, and featured in SuperTopo, but it is also a very nice route and doesn't see as much traffic as other routes in the area (e.g. West Crack gridlock, N Face of Fairview clusterfun), so by this definition, I don't see why you feel that you have to mock it.

OMG! He is mocking him! Unbelievable! Let's gather around fire and cry about it together!
I sure hope these inflammatory comments did not cause any loss of sleep.

Tenaya peak is NOT under appreciated. Most likely, it gets more traffic than Matthis crest. It is funny you compared it to West Crack, since west crack is a cragging route, like Jamcrack ( ). Fairview dome is also a cragging peak 20 minutes from parking lot.
EB and I talked about rarely done alpine routes. Tenaya peak is actually opposite of that. If you were aware of roots of this thread you would understand a little better. We were talking about Liberty Ridge, and I mentioned there must be other routes that are better but done rarely. EB posted this thread. So we are talking about routes that are done less often than Liberty Ridge, that are full value (long and difficult). If you think Tenaya peak is done less frequently than Liberty Ridge than I guess you should still be in disbelief at my sarcasm.

If you were aware of roots of this thread you would understand a little better.

You're right V. I don't understand. I don't understand a lot of things about your behavior the past year.

I wasn't aware that this was an exclusive conversation. I'm sorry. Apparently I'm not in your inner circle of mountain wisdom. I know my place. I shall recede into my cave of learning where you shall leave me tidbits of your wisdom, as you do all of these climbs with ego influencing no part of your view of enjoying mountains, climbing and the fellowship of the rope. Just throw me a bone every now and then, please? Because it's not about ego, is it? It is all about being honest, reciprocating, and dependable with your climbing partners, right?

As you know me, you know that I tend to be pretty blunt in my opinions, though at times sarcastic to get across hints. I'm being very reserved with you about your behavior online and as a climbing partner and what I think of it (apart from bringing it up publicly - as I've lost patience with you), and pointing out that I think you're being a jerk where it is not at all warranted. And this is how you talk to friends, eh? I'm not laughing, and I'm just sayin', but if you don't care, then oh well. That's too bad :-/

gotta love ya vitaliy. you sure know how to keep the shite spiced around here. here is another one for you, since you like the car to car gig, this one should give you full value, and does not get done too much. its got it all...

credit to dustysdawg 4 foto...

You're right V. I don't understand. I don't understand a lot of things about your behavior the past year.

I wasn't aware that this was an exclusive conversation. I'm sorry. Apparently I'm not in your inner circle of mountain wisdom. I know my place. I shall recede into my cave of learning where you shall leave me tidbits of your wisdom, as you do all of these climbs with ego influencing no part of your view of enjoying mountains, climbing and the fellowship of the rope. Just throw me a bone every now and then, please? Because it's not about ego, is it? It is all about being honest, reciprocating, and dependable with your climbing partners, right?

You should be talking to me about these behaviors in a personal email/real life, not a public forum or facebook. You have to bring up personal trash in public because you tried to ask/talk about it in person? I still have no idea what you hold against me regarding 'last 2 months.' HINT: email or call me instead of sniffing about it in this thread, mr. victim. Yes, I have a huge ego. I usually feed it by posting dozens of trip reports to summitpost to get all the attention I need.

15x15.Some day. Picture peak looks beautiful. This climb seems fun, but a bit tough for me now. Maybe in a few years...hopefully.

I've told you many times before about my gripes, to the point I feel like a broken record so I'm just giving up on getting through. I'll e-mail you later to make the whole picture explicit, but as far my earlier post here I made it because as I already said (ahem), you're being a jerk to innocent posts and nice people. I decided to post here after having a WTF moment when you responded to Diggler's post so negatively. I've told you about my feelings on this privately, so since you continue to do it and I object to it, I don't see why you have a problem with me voicing it publicly like I would to anyone else.

Your trip reports are great! Please keep sharing!

It's just the ugly negativity that surrounds so much of your online postings that I want to distance myself from, especially since you seem to be throwing it at people besides trolls now. That is what comes off as ego.

No, my FB was the first time I heard about me treating you like crap in the last 2 months. You did not complain about anything TO ME, in the last 2 months. I went on trips with you, and refused to go on trips with others when we had solid plans. I did not flake on you last minute, and usually it was what you wanted to do that we did. Practiced things just like you wanted. Last trip I did with Hamik was planned after you told me you are going to Oregon to climb Hood. So I made alternative plans to climb with others.
On that trip I got a giant blood blister, which you saw a photo of. I could not commit to a big wall on the following weekend, and possibly North Dome on day 3, by Tuesday. So on Tuesday I told you to climb with someone else over the weekend because I am not sure (was looking out for YOUR benefit, to avoid flaking on you in the end if it isn't healed well). You said you will make own plans. On Thursday night I decided I could probably do a 1 day cragging trip since it is low commitment, so I contacted Bryan and he was down to climb on Sat. We climbed that day. And I bought fridge/furniture, did other errands on other days to free up time for Washington Column for the next weekend we can go do it. Than you freak out on my FB instead of emailing me and asking for details. And tell me I treated you so bad for last 2 months...was quite a surprise for me.
I did not see my comment to Dirk as such a big deal. I think you are making an elephant out of it. Maybe it came out a bit mean, but I did not intend it to be.

tenaya peak is my greatest send til date. its too bad that a rock climbing legend like vitaliy does not consider it full value. i'm butt hurt.

I don't know Stef, I think "full value" *should* mean a tiring, long day. To me, the expression means something like "full value for the day." The kind of day that has you crashing at the end, head reeling from the outrageous vertical exposure you got to experience. That route sounds great, but it's just a pitch. I'd say a "full value" day in that context would be do every 5.11b on the crag in the morning, then every 5.11a in the afternoon, and climb till dark on the leftovers.

That...is full value

sjarelkwint wrote:I think you can find millions of full value routes in the alps but also everywhere in the world. It also depends on the level you're climbing ...

I would go one step further and say it doesn't matter at what level you're climbing/hiking/skiing/watevah. First day on rock with some friends last year in the Alabama Hills, or taking Kevin skiing for the first time a few weeks ago, and you see the explosion of light in their eyes, the excitement to do it all over again.

MooseTracks wrote:

sjarelkwint wrote:I think you can find millions of full value routes in the alps but also everywhere in the world. It also depends on the level you're climbing ...

I would go one step further and say it doesn't matter at what level you're climbing/hiking/skiing/watevah. First day on rock with some friends last year in the Alabama Hills, or taking Kevin skiing for the first time a few weeks ago, and you see the explosion of light in their eyes, the excitement to do it all over again.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't mean to endorse a restrictive view of who or what gets to use the term "full value," I'm just saying that in my mind, it does have something to do with a good long days work and the exhaustion that goes along with that. But there are a dozen definitions and it's certainly true that quarries in Wales, gorges in Virginia and boulders in the Virgin Islands can all contain complete universes of adventure. Go to it!

http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.p ... 247#444247

On my first trip to Sierra my friends and I did Mountaineer's route on Whitney, and at that point doing it as a 3 day trip was more than 'full value,' I was exhausted.


photo credit:Daria

Although I look happy here and this was not one of the biggest days on Sierra Challenge 2010 by any stretch, I was for some reason exhausted (maybe because it was day 7 or so?) and had a 'full value' day, to be honest I just wanted to go home at that point.



This year a friend (same person I did MR on Whitney with, and numerous other climbs) and I did Third Pillar of Dana in winter. A lot harder to clean snow out of cracks and climb in toe numbing cold.

So I guess there is a way to have different kinds of full value days, even if it does not involve 30 pitches of climbing and 10 mile approach.

I am still undecided about trip structure that I like the most...dayhiking, hiking in and camping....but for me full value would mean good company, a good amount of hiking, a long climb, and a lot of great scenery to take photos of.

twoshuzz, you should post some photos from your trips. I remember you mentioned Ama Dablam and Cassin ridge. Those are both candidates to be full value for you, and supposed to both be super scenic. Would love to see some photos from those trips...

You did North ridge?! That's the route I want to do up it, one day.

You do not need to get up at all or write a lengthy description. Just post a few photos and write a few words about it in this thread for a start. Would honestly make my day! How many days did it take on route? Were there good bivy spots?

I've definitely had some full-value days skiing lately. . . Deep, continuous powder that has left me exhausted and in need of a few beers at the end of the day, and has left me sore for a couple days afterward. Definitely worth the fatigue, soreness, and skiing-in-a-blizzard factor.