*

mountainsandsound,

That sort of rebuttal is one that moderate folks have been trying to use against U.S. Representative Wally Herger (mentioned prior) for the last quarter century. I once wrote a letter admonishing him for repeatedly stating that the federal government was "holding school children hostage" by increasing roadless areas and furthering the demise of the logging industry. I suggested that he, a key member of the House Way and Means Committee, work to secure other funding sources for rural schools.

Unfortunately, your well written response, as well as responses that may go in other directions, often get reduced to short, attention grabbing clips, and lowest common denominator type politics.

Any good memes out there, leading in solution-oriented compromise direction, that might influence all but the most extreme on either side of these issues?

OK, first off, this is the reason I generally do not engage in internet debate. It never ends and rarely is the mind of either side changed. This time I did engage so I guess I have to say something.

mountainsandsound wrote:His "understanding" is neither nuanced nor deep if he actually believes the same tired rhetoric about the ESA costing jobs.

SeanReedy wrote:That sort of rebuttal is one that moderate folks have been trying to use

I do not think that this is a moderate tone. As they say, politics is not beanbag and so I am not objecting playing rough, but I do think it is a bit arrogant to pour on a little internet courage when one knows nothing about someone other than what they misconstrued from my own statements. It is precisely this kind of attitude from "I know better than you" out-of-towners that people recoil from and cause them to reject an attempt at compromise. I would love to see how effective mountainandsound's tone would be in person. Again, its not moderate when it borders on mild ad hominem. Also, this is practically argument by dismissal.

SeanReedy wrote:Unfortunately, your well written response, as well as responses that may go in other directions, often get reduced to short, attention grabbing clips, and lowest common denominator type politics.

Judging from his response, I would say that Mountainandsound missed the essence of what I was trying to say. My assertion was that Mike has a deeper and more nuanced understanding of the issues confronting our community up here. If someone a couple states away wants to argue that they know the exigencies of the local situation better than an elected county supervisor who has lived his entire life here... You get my point. The coming of the wolf (something I am personally fascinated with and excited by) brings with it the danger of (often arrogant) out-of-towners overriding local control and laying down new restrictions on an already regulation burdened community. I was not and did not intend to speak for Mike. All I was implying by referring to jobs and the ESA was that, right or wrong, people believe that it has adversely impacted the community.

Which brings me to Mountainandsound's primary thrust, which was, though off topic, impassioned (and largely anecdotal). I think that it is a fruitless debate as to whether the ESA and the Spotted Owl were responsible for the demise of the timber industry since the unassailable fact is that it is dead. Of course there were other factors in the industry's collapse. Did the Spotted Owl contribute significantly?

mountainsandsound wrote:Restrictions placed on logging by the ESA only brought on the inevitable

By your own admission, that tired rhetoric seems to have some validity. Was it inevitable? I guess we will never know now, will we?

SeanReedy wrote:U.S. Representative Wally Herger

I can't stand the guy. He is embarrassing. As far as I am concerned, he can't retire fast enough.

So, to circle back to my point in my first post, I think it is...inappropriate...to simply attribute simplistic or cynical motives to someone based on selective quotes just because they might disagree with us.

That said, and not that this point needs to be made, but I am open to hiking or whatever with anyone, regardless of their political persuasion.

*

mountainsandsound wrote:Once we can wade through the baggage and the BS, then we can get to work.

Agreed.

Yes, my tone on the first post was arrogant and not appropriate. I guess an internet forum brings out the worst and a town hall meeting makes me a gentleman.

YAWN ... all this debating is making my eyes close, AND I'll be counting lots and lots of tasty and juicy SHEEP tonight ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvTU97cx2B0[/youtube]


Seriously, don't know a whole lot 'bout wolves, but I know a "rebuttal" when I see one ...

Bubba Suess wrote:

SeanReedy wrote:That sort of rebuttal is one that moderate folks have been trying to use

I do not think that this is a moderate tone.

I agree that the opening tone was arrogant and indicated continued judgement of your friend based on only one quote. I had read the beginning too fast (which was easy for me to do not knowing your friend and having spent way too much time reading from my laptop the past few days). Also, I suspect that most folks where I grew up, and especially in the more rural areas nearby, would not have used the word moderate to describe the content.

I simply found the gist of the positions expressed more reasonable than repeatedly bringing up the spotted owl, endangered species, federal interference, and nothing else (which is generally what I have encountered on the logging issue at various points in my life and in various forms). Beyond writing a letter to Wally Herger and intensely studying CA logging issues for a very brief period in college, I have done little besides read news and magazine articles. Have I participated in the decision making process on these issues to begin to more fully grasp what people making the decisions think? Nope!

SeanReedy wrote:Unfortunately, your well written response, as well as responses that may go in other directions, often get reduced to short, attention grabbing clips, and lowest common denominator type politics.

Bubba Seuss wrote:Judging from his response, I would say that Mountainandsound missed the essence of what I was trying to say...

I was not writing carefully and see that clearly now. My intent was to move away from you and your neighbor and back to the general topics, but I made it sound like I thought your points had been directly rebutted. My intened emphasis was to lament how things generally go when it comes to what makes the news, a forum like this one, and political debates in general. I certainly understand why things that have been written here would invoke a repsonse and was partly lamenting that not much of what you, your neighbor, or anyone else knows and thinks would get across productively to many people, if anyone. For better or worse, I chose quotes that I suspected would gather interest. I knew that, and suspected it would be largely unproductive in actually impacting the issues. That's how internet forums and many other types of forums/discussions tend to go. I see that you have touched on that already (but I didn't quote ya on it). Having said that, I do sometimes learn or reflect during threads on here when contents, mindsets, and attitudes lend themselves to that, but would come here first for very few topics.

Bubba Seuss wrote:That said, and not that this point needs to be made, but I am open to hiking or whatever with anyone, regardless of their political persuasion.

Good! Someday, when I don't need to get the less trustworthy of my two dogs out on a hike up there, I think it would be great to go on a hike with you, with or without kids. Whatever your political ideas may be, I suspect I would find them much more interesting than the ones I hear about from the guys I hike with up there sometimes. Also, I don't tend to ask or share about those types of opinions much when not in the SP forums, excepting a very small group of friends and family. The point would be to be hiking, having fun, and talking hiking stuff. You know, just like the SP forums.

Icarreau, you can eat mutton all you want, but I'm going to have a cigar and watch for pigs on the wing.

Mussolini was fond of this:





My dog, who is fond of herding, had to learn that cats (and children) are often averse to her attempts:



I'm fond of eating sheep, but find herding them dull. That's probably why I sometimes find myself in the position of questioning this guy:

The wolf is still in northern Lassen County, but I found the timing of the article below to be a fun coincidence. It turns out that there is open access to chatting via the internet with people directly related to the various issues mentioned in this thread.

Social media on the agenda; author will discuss blogging at Sierra-Cascade logging expo: ...Fowle, a 41-year-old fourth-generation Siskiyou County rancher, will talk about the importance of social media. Fowle often tweets from the range and advocates for agriculture through his blog. Two years ago, Fowle and some friends started the AgChat Foundation, which trains and empowers people in agriculture to tell their positive stories using social media."We are so separated as a society from where our resources come from that social media is an avenue for conversation to occur to lead to a clearer understanding of ... why things are done to get food on your plate, to get lumber to the yard to build a house, to get fiber to the store for your clothes," said Fowle. His KK Bar Ranch in Etna raises cattle, horses and hay. Fowle also leads the Siskiyou County Planning Commission. Social media allows Fowle to have conversations with people who he said might not be clear about an issue or have taken a position that "is harmful to agriculture." By having the virtual chat, a mutual respect may occur. So it's OK if that person chooses not to fully support your side, if he or she chooses not to completely oppose agriculture, Fowle said. "That is considered a win also," he said....

http://www.redding.com/news/2012/feb/04/social-media-on-the-menu/

I grew up right between the two cities that have been hosting the expo, near a view that includes a mill, forests, ag land, ranches, and mountains. Luckily having some extended family members making a living in those places, and others making a living in the related government agencies, has never created this kind of feeling:



By the way, does the internet ever leave anyone with this feeling?

The wolf is back in Shasta county, where the logging conference is being held.

Update on social media/rancher/environment:

http://www.redding.com/news/2012/feb/09/siskiyou-county-rancher-shares-benefits-of-media/

Social media, he said, allows anybody to create the news, frame the story, even the write the headline...It's important not to engage people in arguments because you will never win... "There's only one way to ever win an argument and that's not to get in one," Fowle said. "Respect the other person's opinion."..."What I do in my advocacy is not focus on locals on local issues," Fowle said...Fowle told the gathering they are wasting their time with the 10 percent who support your position or the other 10 percent who make up the staunch opposition.
It's the folks in the middle you need to worry about...

mountainsandsound wrote:Icarreau, you can eat mutton all you want, but I'm going to have a cigar and watch for pigs on the wing.

"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding.

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat ???

You! Yes, YOU behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U[/youtube]

http://www.redding.com/news/2012/feb/27/wildlife-groups-ask-calif-wolf-protections/

It sounds like the wolf almost returned to Oregon, but has been hanging out in Siskyou County again (where issues involving the endangered species act have been particularly controversial).

Along with details about the wolf, OR-7, and the pack he came from, the article above describes efforts underway to protect and manage what seems to be the inevitable return of wolf populations to California.