Chris Simpson wrote:Seano - As for soloing on Rainier, they will issue you a solo permit if you have completed 5-10 summits of Rainier OR terrain similar to Rainier or a successful summit of Denali. I know this because I applied for a solo permit a few weeks ago.

Thanks -- now I know the rules of the solo permit game, though I doubt I'll play it again. I think I did 5 things at least as "glacier-hard" as a standard route on Rainier this summer (solo, EDIT: some explanation), but I don't see having a reason to go back to Rainier. I hope you get your permit in any case.

EB -- Where's the "advice," terrible or otherwise? What you quote is just my own assessment of the risk. The OP should, of course, take it for what it's worth and make his own decision. The guide service costs about 20 micromorts.

Ben Beckerich wrote:I got one for Kautz with no previous Big R attempts, but I had a long resume of soloing on other lines on other big peaks, and endured a pretty intense personal interview... permit granted "with reservation." I got the impression they aren't granted very often.

FWIW, the rangers have no power to deny a solo permit. The process is intended to dissuade soloists because soloing on active glaciers is a very risky thing, one that no amount of experience can mitigate. The rangers realize this, but many climbers don't. They do everything they can to impress upon the would be soloist the very real risks and consequences of un-roped glacier travel. If the rangers put themselves in a position where they could actually approve or deny permits (solo or group) they would assume an enormous liability.

ExcitableBoy wrote:

Ben Beckerich wrote:I got one for Kautz with no previous Big R attempts, but I had a long resume of soloing on other lines on other big peaks, and endured a pretty intense personal interview... permit granted "with reservation." I got the impression they aren't granted very often.

FWIW, the rangers have no power to deny a solo permit. The process is intended to dissuade soloists because soloing on active glaciers is a very risky thing, one that no amount of experience can mitigate. The rangers realize this, but many climbers don't. They do everything they can to impress upon the would be soloist the very real risks and consequences of un-roped glacier travel. If the rangers put themselves in a position where they could actually approve or deny permits (solo or group) they would assume an enormous liability.

So you're telling me if I came in there and said I have no climbing experience at all, they'd "grant" me my solo permit?

I'm not necessarily challenging what you're saying... but if this is so, why the big charade? They definitely go out of their way to give the impression they can and do deny solo permits. Dude literally spent about 2 hours studying my history while I waited. What's all that for?

Ben,

I did not Even though I ve climbed Orizaba, Hood, Shasta blah blah blah, none of those mountains possess the crevasse danger that Rainier does. They would not even give me a permit for the Gib Ledges. The ranger I spoke to stated that they would be more than happy to grant me a solo permit upon my "successful" return from Denali. However, the ranger also stated that he would again be more than happy to issue a solo permit upon 1 partnered Rainier summit, which goes against what he said about the 5-10 summits or Denali thing. Although, I did supply a lengthy and detailed description regarding my technique to solo crevassed terrain, which he liked. I have a feeling it's preference. Or, what EB said which I just now read.

Don't forget to train for the climb down. Lunges, jump lunges, jump squats might work for that. Check out Steve House's book Training for the New Aplinism. It will give you some good training advice. Wendler's 5/3/1 is a great strength program--I use it myself--but you will need more functional or at least climbing-specific strength work. Good luck!

Chris Simpson wrote:Ben,

I did not Even though I ve climbed Orizaba, Hood, Shasta blah blah blah, none of those mountains possess the crevasse danger that Rainier does. They would not even give me a permit for the Gib Ledges. The ranger I spoke to stated that they would be more than happy to grant me a solo permit upon my "successful" return from Denali. However, the ranger also stated that he would again be more than happy to issue a solo permit upon 1 partnered Rainier summit, which goes against what he said about the 5-10 summits or Denali thing. Although, I did supply a lengthy and detailed description regarding my technique to solo crevassed terrain, which he liked. I have a feeling it's preference. Or, what EB said which I just now read.

Case in point, apparently....

IagosGhost wrote:Don't forget to train for the climb down. Lunges, jump lunges, jump squats might work for that. Check out Steve House's book Training for the New Aplinism. It will give you some good training advice. Wendler's 5/3/1 is a great strength program--I use it myself--but you will need more functional or at least climbing-specific strength work. Good luck!

Very good point. Walking dumbbell lunges, squats, calf raises, box jumping (or whatever it is called), one legged bending squats are all excellent. I've talked to guys who said they trained for Rainier exclusively by doing stair steppers. The climb up was fine, but the climb back down destroyed them.

As far as the solo permit system goes, Stefan Lofgren, the head climbing ranger, is also an LEO. He carries a badge, a gun, and handcuffs and pretty much whatever a guy with a gun, badge, handcuffs and legal authority says the law is, is what it is. That said, the solo permit system is arranged to force would be soloists to think very hard about what they are embarking upon.

ExcitableBoy wrote:As far as the solo permit system goes, Stefan Lofgren, the head climbing ranger, is also an LEO. He carries a badge, a gun, and handcuffs and pretty much whatever a guy with a gun, badge, handcuffs and legal authority says the law is, is what it is.

What are you saying? Do you have something against cops?

ExcitableBoy wrote:That said, the solo permit system is arranged to force would be soloists to think very hard about what they are embarking upon.

This much was very obvious.. but you made it sound like it was all just a sham to give you the impression they can do something they can't. The Ranger who issued my permit definitely used words that indicated to me that permits are issued or denied. I got the feeling that I met some criteria for a solo permit and that barring an articulatable reason to deny, that kind of obligated him to issue, even though he didn't personally necessarily feel like it was a great idea.

So in that sense, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the policy is that so long as the minimum criteria for issuing is met, the ranger shall issue the permit. But he can also still drive home the point to you, as he's granting the permit, that soloing Big R is unnecessarily dangerous.

ExcitableBoy wrote:As far as the solo permit system goes, Stefan Lofgren, the head climbing ranger, is also an LEO. He carries a badge, a gun, and handcuffs and pretty much whatever a guy with a gun, badge, handcuffs and legal authority says the law is, is what it is.

As it would read in ANAM:

seano fell into a crevasse and froze to death after being shot by an enraged ranger-cop. He was not wearing a helmet.

God, what a farce.

He gon' shoot ya ass, muthafucca. Y'bes' git ya puuurmit.

Thanks again everyone!

I will definitely remember to drink plenty of water to help acclimate.

I've also read around and keep hearing about Steve House's book, Training for the New Alpinism. I'm going to buy this book and see what it's about. That being said, I have hit my first, serious wall and that's knee pain on the descent. It only happens when I've been climbing/descending steep hills for 2-3 hours. Around the 2.5 hour mark, I start experiencing pain in my right knee. The pain is similar to what I've experienced in some of my half-marathons. It was a bit demoralizing to be honest. I would have hated to give up such a sport due being physically incapable of coming down a mountain.

Fortunately, I usually put up a fight So off to the Internet I went to research. As a result, I've ceased running and replaced it with cycling. As a precaution, strength training was put on hold. Some of my friends are athletes, so they have put me in contact with a physiotherapist. He's helped both runners and few mountaineers (some that have even summited Everest!) deal with various leg-related pains, so I feel I'm in good hands. The game plan right now is more yoga, cycling and stretching to help build the knee to last longer. I'm still going to continue my weekend plan with climbing hills as I think that's key.

I've signed up to climb Mt. Washington in NH with EMS Climbing school in January 2015. It's a sort of test to see where I am and what I will need to work on for Rainier. Plus I'm really impatient and just want to climb mountains Based on the results of this climb, I hope to bring back more focus to strength exercises.

Worst case scenario, I'll summit mountains (no knee pain on ascent) and ski down.

The loads most folks take on Denali is about 100lbs, however, most climbers use some combination of sleds and double carries so you really never need to carry more than 50lbs on your back.

Interesting. I did read about how sleds are used to carry stuff. I also read to train for that, one should just tie a rope around a tire and drag it around. But again, I think it would be wise to do a few 14ers before attempting Denali (this would be guided too).

Dragging out my soapbox (sorry!)... Are you patient? If you want to be able to say "I climbed Rainier" by next year, you can pay $1000 to some guide and another $1000 or so for the gear they make you buy, and you're done. Replace "Rainier" with "Everest" and "$1000" with "$60,000," and you can probably do that, too.

But what happens the next time you want to do something similar? Most guiding companies make their money getting people to the top of mountains they want to climb, so they have no incentive to teach people the skills to do it by themselves. If you choose the right program, you may be able to learn enough to make it worth the cost, but it's by no means guaranteed.

I would LOVE to summit mountains with a partner and not a guided service but no, I can't wait that long. Also, I live in Ontario so my access to mountains are limited.

Thanks again everyone!

I will definitely remember to drink plenty of water to help acclimate.

I've also read around and keep hearing about Steve House's book, Training for the New Alpinism. I'm going to buy this book and see what it's about. That being said, I have hit my first, serious wall and that's knee pain on the descent. It only happens when I've been climbing/descending steep hills for 2-3 hours. Around the 2.5 hour mark, I start experiencing pain in my right knee. The pain is similar to what I've experienced in some of my half-marathons. It was a bit demoralizing to be honest. I would have hated to give up such a sport due being physically incapable of coming down a mountain.

Fortunately, I usually put up a fight So off to the Internet I went to research. As a result, I've ceased running and replaced it with cycling. As a precaution, strength training was put on hold. Some of my friends are athletes, so they have put me in contact with a physiotherapist. He's helped both runners and few mountaineers (some that have even summited Everest!) deal with various leg-related pains, so I feel I'm in good hands. The game plan right now is more yoga, cycling and stretching to help build the knee to last longer. I'm still going to continue my weekend plan with climbing hills as I think that's key.

I've signed up to climb Mt. Washington in NH with EMS Climbing school in January 2015. It's a sort of test to see where I am and what I will need to work on for Rainier. Plus I'm really impatient and just want to climb mountains Based on the results of this climb, I hope to bring back more focus to strength exercises.

Worst case scenario, I'll summit mountains (no knee pain on ascent) and ski down.

The loads most folks take on Denali is about 100lbs, however, most climbers use some combination of sleds and double carries so you really never need to carry more than 50lbs on your back.

Interesting. I did read about how sleds are used to carry stuff. I also read to train for that, one should just tie a rope around a tire and drag it around. But again, I think it would be wise to do a few 14ers before attempting Denali (this would be guided too).

Dragging out my soapbox (sorry!)... Are you patient? If you want to be able to say "I climbed Rainier" by next year, you can pay $1000 to some guide and another $1000 or so for the gear they make you buy, and you're done. Replace "Rainier" with "Everest" and "$1000" with "$60,000," and you can probably do that, too.

But what happens the next time you want to do something similar? Most guiding companies make their money getting people to the top of mountains they want to climb, so they have no incentive to teach people the skills to do it by themselves. If you choose the right program, you may be able to learn enough to make it worth the cost, but it's by no means guaranteed.

I would LOVE to summit mountains with a partner and not a guided service but no, I can't wait that long. Also, I live in Ontario so my access to mountains are limited. It's definitely a goal for me but I think over a much longer course of time.

Thanks again everyone!

I will definitely remember to drink plenty of water to help acclimate.

I've also read around and keep hearing about Steve House's book, Training for the New Alpinism. I'm going to buy this book and see what it's about. That being said, I have hit my first, serious wall and that's knee pain on the descent. It only happens when I've been climbing/descending steep hills for 2-3 hours. Around the 2.5 hour mark, I start experiencing pain in my right knee. The pain is similar to what I've experienced in some of my half-marathons. It was a bit demoralizing to be honest. I would have hated to give up such a sport due being physically incapable of coming down a mountain.

Fortunately, I usually put up a fight So off to the Internet I went to research. As a result, I've ceased running and replaced it with cycling. As a precaution, strength training was put on hold. Some of my friends are athletes, so they have put me in contact with a physiotherapist. He's helped both runners and few mountaineers (some that have even summited Everest!) deal with various leg-related pains, so I feel I'm in good hands. The game plan right now is more yoga, cycling and stretching to help build the knee to last longer. I'm still going to continue my weekend plan with climbing hills as I think that's key.

I've signed up to climb Mt. Washington in NH with EMS Climbing school in January 2015. It's a sort of test to see where I am and what I will need to work on for Rainier. Plus I'm really impatient and just want to climb mountains Based on the results of this climb, I hope to bring back more focus to strength exercises.

Worst case scenario, I'll summit mountains (no knee pain on ascent) and ski down.

The loads most folks take on Denali is about 100lbs, however, most climbers use some combination of sleds and double carries so you really never need to carry more than 50lbs on your back.

Interesting. I did read about how sleds are used to carry stuff. I also read to train for that, one should just tie a rope around a tire and drag it around. But again, I think it would be wise to do a few 14ers before attempting Denali (this would be guided too).

Dragging out my soapbox (sorry!)... Are you patient? If you want to be able to say "I climbed Rainier" by next year, you can pay $1000 to some guide and another $1000 or so for the gear they make you buy, and you're done. Replace "Rainier" with "Everest" and "$1000" with "$60,000," and you can probably do that, too.

But what happens the next time you want to do something similar? Most guiding companies make their money getting people to the top of mountains they want to climb, so they have no incentive to teach people the skills to do it by themselves. If you choose the right program, you may be able to learn enough to make it worth the cost, but it's by no means guaranteed.

I would LOVE to summit mountains with a partner and not a guided service but no, I can't wait that long. Also, I live in Ontario so my access to mountains are limited. I do overtime hope to learn to truly climb mountains with a partner though but that will probably take a lot longer time.

Off topic everyone - I'm not sure if I'm having trouble posting replies but does everyone's post get reviewed by a mod? Or am I experiencing some glitch? This is my 3rd time trying to reply to this post...

You can say that again.

Cycling is the absolute best thing that's ever happened to my climbing, as far as slogging goes. You can hit corners of cardio fitness never known by running, on the bike- especially in the hills.

I just couldn't believe how well I hiked, first time at altitude after I started cycling. Unbelievable.

YMMV

cdnstig wrote:Interesting. I did read about how sleds are used to carry stuff. I also read to train for that, one should just tie a rope around a tire and drag it around. But again, I think it would be wise to do a few 14ers before attempting Denali (this would be guided too).

Dragging a tire is kind of a waste of time. Dragging a wild boar that is trying to trying to run in every direction other than right behind you would be apropos.