Pesky problem-- frozen boots overnight...

by **John Duffield** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:51 pm

1000Pks wrote:Be sure to have good gaitors, snow can get into your boot from over the boot top, and plastic or sno-seal, your feet will get wet. Being a bc powder hound I used the ankle high ones. Or pants that have a sealed cuff about the bottom, maybe secured with a cord running under the sole.

+ 1

Though, it would seem to be obvious

1000Pks wrote:Plastic boots, being rigid, are hamburger makers (for your heels and other spots) if you use them for plain walking. You should get them if you are going for ice climbing, anyway, but myself, frown on spending so much for something that you might do only once or twice. These are specialty items for the rich, and you have some of those in the local MLC SC. Idiots, sometimes.

I take mine out on dayhikes fairly frequently to keep my feet acquainted with them. In the high mountains, they're a must-have. So sometimes, space/weight considerations, you have to get down to one pair of boots lower down. So it has to be those because you'll have to have them higher up.

by **divnamite** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:02 pm

thespiffy wrote:Can anyone attest to a these boots beating the crap out of your shins?

You can probably get them even cheaper on ebay, etc. What size do you wear? I have an used pair for sale.

As for beating the crap out of your shins, yes, they do dig a little bit, at least from my experience. A very simple solution is to lace them loose. If you are just hiking in them, then you don't have to lace them up all the way. I usually lace them loose above the ankle to save my shins. I would hate to ice climb full day in them.

by **John Duffield** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:04 pm

Well, I've even been Mountain Biking in mine. Like I say, sometimes you can't carry the whole shoe wardrobe.

by **thespiffy** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:10 pm

John Duffield wrote:
1000Pks wrote:Be sure to have good gaitors, snow can get into your boot from over the boot top, and plastic or sno-seal, your feet will get wet. Being a bc powder hound I used the ankle high ones. Or pants that have a sealed cuff about the bottom, maybe secured with a cord running under the sole.

+ 1

Though, it would seem to be obvious

1000Pks wrote:Plastic boots, being rigid, are hamburger makers (for your heels and other spots) if you use them for plain walking. You should get them if you are going for ice climbing, anyway, but myself, frown on spending so much for something that you might do only once or twice. These are specialty items for the rich, and you have some of those in the local MLC SC. Idiots, sometimes.

I take mine out on dayhikes fairly frequently to keep my feet acquainted with them. In the high mountains, they're a must-have. So sometimes, space/weight considerations, you have to get down to one pair of boots lower down. So it has to be those because you'll have to have them higher up.

All good points to consider. Thank you. I was wearing sealed cuff windproof pants.

It really isn't too much of a problem of them being wet (the inside of them), a little... my feet were pretty dry. It's the material (leather) the boot was constructed of that was freezing solid. Ultimately though that means some moisture penetrated the leather, obviously. Lacing (laces froze solid too) them, they were making cracking sounds and it felt like a block of solid ice on my feet for about 2 hours.

by **Sierra Ledge Rat** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:15 pm

Boots in a stuff sack at the bottom of your sleeping bag
Down booties with insulated soles makes it more tolerable

by **rhyang** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:38 pm

I put my insulated single boots in a garbage bag inside my sleeping bag. Inevitably they will have some residual snow on them which melts and would otherwise leak into my sleeping bag. I'd imagine the size of the stuff sack I'd need to put those boots in would be kinda large

In the morning I also put some chemical toe warmers between my liner socks and smartwools which also helps -- my feet are usually cold in the morning with single boots no matter what I do.

Double boots are usually about 5 or 6 pounds, though with thermofit liners you can bring that down somewhat. They may or may not bang your shins depending on the fit, model, how tightly you lace them, etc. But add snowshoes and you are walking around with something like four or five pounds on each foot :shock:

I generally don't like to do that unless it's butt cold.

by **Franky** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:50 pm

I have a pair of Scarpa Omegas that I got for pretty cheap that I use for winter overnights. They come with intuition liners, they are plenty warm for winter conditions in the lower 48.

I once did a 7 mile hike and snowshoe in the winter in them, with a heavy winter pack on a solo overnight trip up towards lake merced in yosemite. They were perfect, no blisters, no sore shins, no nothing. They feel pretty close to leather mountaineering boot, but are plastic doubles. Highly recommend going for the omegas instead of the invernos if you do go that route.

Sierra trading post also has a very good stock of insulated leather mountaineering boots for super cheap right now.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,162 ... Women.html

look for an extra 20% off coupon too. I'd recommend something like that instead of those asolos, they won't absorb nearly as much water.

by **JHH60** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:54 pm

rhyang wrote:Double boots are usually about 5 or 6 pounds, though with thermofit liners you can bring that down somewhat. They may or may not bang your shins depending on the fit, model, how tightly you lace them, etc. But add snowshoes and you are walking around with something like four or five pounds on each foot I generally don't like to do that unless it's butt cold.

My double plastics (Scarpa Omegas) are actually lighter than my single leathers (LS Nepals), and definitely warmer in the morning on the Nth day out (N>1), but are a little less flexible in the ankles and less comfortable for hiking than leather. But they are nice when it's cold and/or multidays in sloppy wet conditions, and they are comfortable enough if you get the fit right and are careful with lacing.

by **rhyang** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:12 pm

I have a pair of Scarpa Alpha's, the older version of the Omega. I put Intuition liners in them in 2004 and used to use them for ice climbing quite a bit - used them in Cody, Ouray and several seasons in Lee Vining Canyon in colder temps. Haven't used them for snowcamping .. seems to me that for slogging I'd be better off with something that walks well.

If you are a fan of the Lowa Mountain Expert (and don't find them warm enough), you might also like the Lowa Cristallo -- sierra trading post has them on closeout right now I believe. The uppers are mostly synthetic.

by **rhyang** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:30 pm

Vapor Barrier Liners are the only way to go.

VBL's are certainly worth trying, but not everyone has had such success with them, for whatever reason.

by **hikerbrian** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:14 pm

FortMental wrote:It's too easy to think that it takes $500 of new gear to solve this problem. Truly, all it takes is $20.

I think this is spot on. I bought a lot of boots before I found a system that worked, and I really didn't need to spend so much money. But that was pre-interwebs. Here's what I've found. YMMV, obviously.
1. Get something with a removable liner. Put the liner in your sleeping bag at night.
2. Plastic or leather doesn't matter much if leather is waterproofed and you follow 1 above.
3. Plastic boots aren't that comfortable. I wear mine only when the terrain dictates - if ice axe/crampons are REQUIRED, then I pull out my Koflach Verticals.
4. I ALWAYS wear vapor barrier liners in the snow. Smartwool expedition socks next to skin, then plastic bags (bread bags or grocery bags work great), then boot liners. For me, nothing has come close to this system in terms of warmth and comfort. As Rob says though, this system doesn't work for everyone.

I implore you to try the cheap alternatives before you spend a bunch of money on more boots.

by **thespiffy** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:21 am

hikerbrian wrote:
FortMental wrote:It's too easy to think that it takes $500 of new gear to solve this problem. Truly, all it takes is $20.

I think this is spot on. I bought a lot of boots before I found a system that worked, and I really didn't need to spend so much money. But that was pre-interwebs. Here's what I've found. YMMV, obviously.
1. Get something with a removable liner. Put the liner in your sleeping bag at night.
2. Plastic or leather doesn't matter much if leather is waterproofed and you follow 1 above.
3. Plastic boots aren't that comfortable. I wear mine only when the terrain dictates - if ice axe/crampons are REQUIRED, then I pull out my Koflach Verticals.
4. I ALWAYS wear vapor barrier liners in the snow. Smartwool expedition socks next to skin, then plastic bags (bread bags or grocery bags work great), then boot liners. For me, nothing has come close to this system in terms of warmth and comfort. As Rob says though, this system doesn't work for everyone.

I implore you to try the cheap alternatives before you spend a bunch of money on more boots.

All of this sounds like solid advice, thank you.

It's amazing what simple, small changes can provide you with increased comfort and safety, thank you for sharing your experience with me.

Like I said earlier, I don't post much here, but I'm amazed at the response I've had thus far... to even a rather noobish question. I can't thank everyone enough.

by **thespiffy** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:25 am

1000Pks wrote:If you have concerns about toxicity, you might not wish to drink the water poured hot into a BPA-leaching plastic bottle. Stainless steel bottles, if you can afford them, would conduct the heat faster and dry out the inner boot more efficiently, I'd think. Although with boiling water they may be too hot to handle, at first.

I don't get sweaty feet, so maybe that's why VBLs don't work for me. I guess if you're asking about frozen boots you are a bit of a beginner, so the input about gaitors. I'd be out for a week in sub-freezing lows and never thought much of cold feet, then. My leather boots were just left out in the snow and how they felt when I put them back on, that's just how it works, and with exertion, my feet would just warm up, then, so I wouldn't be cold. My then wool socks would always be damp, but they do retain some insulation value. No other way to go, back then.

People would worry about frostbite and frozen toes, but here in the Sierra it doesn't get too extreme. Now, it seldom gets down to single digits, and though I've been out then, suffered just slight worry and some discomfort. If you worry that your toes may be freezing, just try to check them. I found usually that they are just cold, and I still can wiggle them (a good sign). You get the hang of it as far as winter camping, and I had the MLC SC back then to advise me. When we had official snow camping trips and some moderately responsible guidance. Though I had to do my own snow camping to gain enough experience to attend a snow camp, incidentally learned during the deadliest storm that ever hit the Sierra (about 1971).

What you described was nearly my exact experience, after some exertion my boots "thawed" -- I was always able to wiggle my toes, which told me I was still within some realm of safety.

You're correct in your assumption regarding me being a beginner, at least in the realm of sub-zero extended exposure.

What could have taken me several trips to learn you all have taught me in the span of one thread, thank you again.

I've never had such a useful, responsive community.

by **mconnell** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:31 pm

1000Pks wrote:Plastic boots, being rigid, are hamburger makers (for your heels and other spots) if you use them for plain walking.

Depends on the boots. I've hiked several miles a day for a week in Koflach Vert's with no problems. If the boots are well designed and fit right, they won't trash your feet/shins. I wouldn't recommend hiking in them due to the soles being stiff, which means that it jars the hell out of your body, but a good boot that fits won't hurt your feet.

by **Brad Marshall** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:32 am

1000Pks wrote:Plastic boots, being rigid, are hamburger makers (for your heels and other spots) if you use them for plain walking.

I have actually found plastics to be more comfortable and if you pair them up with Intuition liners you'll rarely have hot spots, they don't bang your shins and the liners don't freeze in cold temps because they're closed-cell foam and don't absorb water.

Case in point my wife purchased a brand new pair of Koflach Degres, we fit them with a pair of brand new Intuition liners and the first time she wore them was to the summit of Aconcagua with no hot spots or blisters.

Pesky problem-- frozen boots overnight...

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