Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by orbitor » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:28 am

I decided to write because I feel the ridicule and the sarcastic jabs directed at Ellen and Sally were unwarranted and, frankly, in poor taste.

Let me preface everything by saying that I know Ellen personally and have hiked with her in the past, including in snow. In addition, I am connected with Ellen on social media, where I follow her adventures through the pictures she posts and the trip reports she writes. This is a person who gets out on a regular basis, doing some of the most demanding routes in Southern California. She is highly respected in the local hiking community for her strength, experience and the willingness to share information that many of us have relied on to plan our own trips. I do not know Sally except by reputation, however she and Ellen are constant companions on outings, meaning they share a lot of experience and have built a strong bond as a team.

It is clear to anyone even remotely familiar with these two women that their decision to call for a rescue was not a spurious one, nor does it have anything to do with irresponsible use of the SPOT. They found themselves in a situation where their current physical and mental states did not allow them to either descend the same way, or continue up to connect to with the intended easier descent route. This was due to a combination of unexpectedly difficult conditions and some bad judgment (more on this below). Maybe they just had a crappy day and were exhausted earlier than anticipated. We've all had those days. They could have spent the night and tried to descend the following morning, but correctly assessed that doing so would only result in further deterioration, including loss of confidence, and could have become a much more dangerous incident. Therefore, the decision to call for help was the right one given the situation. To accuse these women of being unprepared amateurs looking for thrills beyond their skill level is simply a pathetic attempt at publicly shaming them.

That said, there are a few important aspects of the story, as reported, that I find unsettling. I fully subscribe to the view, shared by most here, that one should always be able to reverse one's route, or try everything to figure a way down safely. I don't think anyone wants to find themselves trapped in a situation where the only way out is an evacuation. But people sometimes take a course of action that escalates to the point where it becomes a matter of life and death. To err is human. That doesn't mean Ellen and Sally need to be castigated or ridiculed for having recognized their predicament too late.

1. I agree that they should have turned around earlier, when a downclimb was potentially easier. Ellen has done Register Ridge so many times she's lost count, in all seasons. Not an excuse, but it could very well be a case where one finds surprisingly difficult conditions at the beginning of a familiar route, is lured psychologically into continuing by hoping things get easier further on, and finds themselves exhausted and unable to go up or down. Not the first or last time this happens. Yes, it's hard to admit defeat. Yes, they kept going beyond the point where retreat was an option. Between the effort of breaking trail, desire to persevere and a less than stellar day for the body, failure to identify the point of no return is not unheard of. Once that point was passed, they were able to rationalize their remaining options and decided a rescue was best. I commend them for good judgment there, even if lapses occurred previously.

2. I don't believe that having two SPOT devices engendered a sense of complacency on their behalf. Again, these are highly experienced individuals fully aware of their surroundings and abilities. They don't take being rescued lightly, so the fact that they pushed the button meant they truly felt it was a matter of life and death. Ellen and Sally have completed hundreds of other difficult hikes, some in adverse weather conditions, without incident.

3. Ellen and Sally are hikers and not necessarily mountaineers. This is an important distinction. They don't set out to climb challenging alpine routes, but they do look for challenging hiking routes. When those routes warrant more technical gear such as crampons and axe, they are prepared - as was the case here. It is very possible that they got in over their heads on Register Ridge because they weren't necessarily approaching it from a mountaineering perspective. They were also not benefiting from anyone else's beta on that route. When you're the first to go up something that may have been changed significantly by weather, you are taking more risks by default. Ellen and Sally gambled, coming out at the losing end this time. Again, to err is human.

I wrote this novel-length comment because I don't believe it's fair to judge Ellen and Sally solely by the bad decisions in the incident at hand (which had a happy ending by the way, and which they were not afraid to describe in their own words so that we all learn something from it). As respected fellow outdoor enthusiasts, they are not just hapless victims.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by orbitor » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

^^^Duuude, I didn't realize this was a lulzy forum! My bad. I thought discussion of others' misfortune was actually instructive and not just a source of lulz on the internets.

I'm sure that despite your attention span being defined by the number of emojis in a comment, you'll be able to get through that shit. You may want to brush up on the use of formal English first though. Your sense of humor will see you through.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by asmrz » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:31 am

Man, I thought this was a summit/climbing/scrambling/rock climbing web site. When you start posting sorry excuses for people HIKING where they should not ever be in the first place, you have learned nothing at all here.

The issue here should always be, we must be experienced enough, strong enough and have judgement good enough to avoid these kinds of screw ups. This should never ever happen on super easy terrain like Baldy.

Only if you are way out of your zone, will you get into situations that require others to risk their lives to get your sorry ass out...Think about it...This is all about competence and lack of, not about being nice and friendly.

Will you ever get it? I guess not.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by seano » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:36 am

orbitor wrote:^^^Duuude, I didn't realize this was a lulzy forum! My bad. I thought discussion of others' misfortune was actually instructive and not just a source of lulz on the internets.

It's a bit of both, for better and worse.

When someone wanders up an ice slope they can't descend in YakTrax, they could potentially learn several lessons (e.g. conservative decision-making, step-cutting, bringing real crampons). When they call a few thousand dollars worth of helicopter to get them down, it's an expensive learning opportunity. When they think that the only lesson is "I should have brought my helmet," it's hard not to shake one's head.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by orbitor » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:32 am

asmrz wrote:Man, I thought this was a summit/climbing/scrambling/rock climbing web site. When you start posting sorry excuses for people HIKING where they should not ever be in the first place, you have learned nothing at all here.

The issue here should always be, we must be experienced enough, strong enough and have judgement good enough to avoid these kinds of screw ups. This should never ever happen on super easy terrain like Baldy.

Only if you are way out of your zone, will you get into situations that require others to risk their lives to get your sorry ass out...Think about it...This is all about competence and lack of, not about being nice and friendly.

Will you ever get it? I guess not.


Your opinion here leaves no room for ambiguity. Clearly everyone must be experienced enough, strong enough and have good enough judgment before venturing out on routes they have done many times before. Your authoritative tone appears to indicate that you have never found yourself in a difficult situation due to poor decision making. Perhaps you never operated outside your zone of skill and comfort. If so, let me congratulate you because you must be the first such person I've come across. You must have been competent from Day 1.

Last time I checked, many summits can be reached by HIKING, so I find a discussion involving this activity to be entirely relevant to this forum.

The terrain at Baldy does not qualify as super easy in mine and many others' book, especially in winter. R.J. Secor can tell you a thing or two about underestimating that terrain.

My comment was not intended to make excuses for Ellen and Sally's rescue, rather I wanted to point out that even experienced people can get in trouble, through their own poor decision making, but that they shouldn't be judged solely by their mistakes when they have been perfectly competent in so many other instances.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by orbitor » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:00 am

seano wrote:When someone wanders up an ice slope they can't descend in YakTrax, they could potentially learn several lessons (e.g. conservative decision-making, step-cutting, bringing real crampons). When they call a few thousand dollars worth of helicopter to get them down, it's an expensive learning opportunity. When they think that the only lesson is "I should have brought my helmet," it's hard not to shake one's head.


Perfectly valid points. Though the statement about lessons learned was unfortunately phrased like that, I'm sure Ellen and Sally reflected on their experience privately and acknowledged they should have done things differently in the beginning. I just don't see them taking the helicopter hoist, or any rescue for that matter, for granted.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by asmrz » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:19 am

As I said before, you and your friends don't have a clue.

You will never learn anything about mountains and what it takes to travel in them safely, based on your and your "friends" attitude.

Baldy is some of the most benign terrain in Southern California. If that terrain is considered by you and your friends " not so easy terrain", I would suggest you find some other venue to get a challenge out of. Hiking is apparently way too dangerous for you and your friends. You have the temerity to describe your friends as experienced hikers in all seasons. More like total noobs. Spare me the bull shit and the details.

When you call for rescue, you already fucked up royally and broke all the rules of safe travel in the mountains. Going unprepared whether you don't have a clue or are cocky and trying to show off (like RJ was) makes no difference, it all ends in someone else saving you ass. That is unacceptable and totally irresponsible.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by wallspeck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:47 am

Orbitor wrote; Ellen and Sally are hikers and not necessarily mountaineers.

This really is the key to understanding why so many of us are commenting about the rescue.
The difference between hikers and climbers is fundamental and immense.
Hikers think it's just a matter of scale. Climbers would consider it a vast and fundamental shift in attitude.
If you are angered by asmrz's comments, you don't get it.
He is just as bewildered by yours.

No one on here intends to insult Sally and Ellen, it's just that their trip report, unfortunately landed on a CLIMBERS site, and this is how climbers are. Climbers don't really understand hikers. We are bewildered by much of their behavior and motivations. A Climber is NOT just an advanced, more technical hiker. A climber is a different beast.
And that different beast has different motivations and goals and even ethics. Here it gets to the crux of this thread;
One of the most fundamental ethical codes of the climber is 'self-rescue'.
I'm NOT saying that's right or wrong; just saying that's part of our code of honor.

The unfortunate situation of Sally and Ellen, when viewed from a hiker's perspective shows them exhibiting caution and mature decision making. They are responsible adults who got over-extended but smartly carried a SPOT and used it sooner than later, not being foolish.

From a climbers perspective............ well... read all the comments posted above.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by orbitor » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:58 am

wallspeck wrote:Here it gets to the crux of this thread;
One of the most fundamental ethical codes of the climber is 'self-rescue'.
I'm NOT saying that's right or wrong; just saying that's part of our code of honor.


Thanks for your notes. I recognize that there is a major difference in attitude between climbers and hikers. I respect the views of both sides, and admire the code of ethics guiding climbers. The importance of self-rescue becomes clear the more difficult and remote mountains one climbs.

As I mentioned in one of my previous comments, it's not like Ellen and Sally set out that day having an expectation that they be rescued in case of emergency. All the hikers I know do not think that calling in the cavalry when things get dicey should the primary option. However, sometimes people get in over their heads and self-rescue is simply not possible for a number of reasons (here I want to mention that the protagonists of the discussion are at an age when previous physical capabilities may not be available anymore).

In that case, using a SPOT to call for help is better than waiting and escalating the situation into a significantly greater rescue effort. I'm just hoping folks here are understanding of the fact that there are different levels at which rescue is acceptable, and that being unable to self-rescue does not make one into a total fuck-up based on that situation alone.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by wallspeck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:24 pm

Orbitor, I agree.
I actually think for the two of them, considering everything, their experience, etc., that was the right choice.
They are alive, right? :-)

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by asmrz » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:57 pm

Orbitor

I have a more constructive note for you and your friends

Hiking in the winterrized Southern California mountains requires more than just putting one foot in front of the other. We all need some equipment and skills. I used to teach a class called Snow School 101 in the 80s and 90s. Hundreds of people went through it. So let's look at the subject.

1. Why do I need trekking poles with snow baskets, ice axe, crampons and boots?

2. What is the right gear for me?

3. Why is it good to know what types of snow we can encounter in Southern California mountains?

4. How do we hike up a gentle iced up slope?

5. What is flat footing and duck footing? How to do it?

6. How to zig-zag up a steeper slope safely?

7. What is your body in balance and out of balance on icy slopes?

8. How to safely reverse directions?

9. What is a rest step ?

10. How to use an ice axe as a safe upper belay at all times?

11. How to traverse icy slopes safely? What is inside and outside crampon edging and how to use it?

11. How to self arrest in all conditions?

Practicing this should not take more than couple weekends. Find an icy slope with a safe run-out and go practice.

There are books that describe all these movements. Write them down and practice them until you feel comfortable.
You can thank me later. Alois Smrz, Idyllwild.
And this has little to do with climbing. All hikers moving in mountainous terrain in winter conditions should know how to do this.
BTW I might have missed a thing or two. Others could chime in...

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by orbitor » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:53 pm

asmrz wrote:I have a more constructive note for you and your friends


asmrz, your well-intended remarks are appreciated, and I'm not just being sarcastic. Usually suggestions for improvement are more constructive than indiscriminate bashing.

What bothered me is that you lumped everyone into the "clueless" category, without really knowing about individual experience. As it turns out, I have been climbing steep snow for several years, including winter ascents in the Sierra and in Southern California, and lead expeditions as a vetted event leader for Sierra Mountaineering Club. No incidents. While the length of my experience is not anywhere close to yours in number of years, I can provide the answer to every one of your questions and then proceed to demonstrate it.

I am in full agreement that more training is always needed. Ellen and Sally could use a review of all the things you mentioned, plus others, and I will be happy to offer to practice with them if they ask.

It also bears repeating that these women did not go up Register Ridge without knowing what they were doing. They have been using crampons and axe for years and are familiar with most, though not all the techniques needed. They would have no problem completing the route under more "normal" circumstances (and indeed they have done so previously). This time the combination of unusually tough conditions and poor judgment, followed by what to me sounded like a mental block regarding downclimbing, put them in a situation where they couldn't self-rescue. Yes, they were lucky to be able to call for help and receive it swiftly. Definitely many lessons learned, including the need to acquire more skills. Just want to make it clear they are not noobs.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by Denjem » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:56 pm

All that experience should have taught them something. What is the point of experience if you are not paying attention to the lessons learned. Experience doesn't mean shit if you don't learn from it. Perhaps that will no longer be the case for these two anymore.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by asmrz » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:17 pm

orbitor

When you go to winterized Baldy with just spikes for ice protection, you just breached something fundamental. That is not what even minimally experienced people do. So I stand by what I said. If I'm unprepared for the conditions because I don't understand the limitations of my gear and/or don't know what the proper gear is, I cannot and should not be called experienced. In defending your friends actions, you simply perpetuate the myth of their experience. Your own experience in the mountains should make you their harshest (albeit constructive) critic, not defender.

Enough said by me.

Be safe out there, Alois.

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Re: Rescue on Register Ridge - Mt Baldy

by fatdad » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:21 pm

Denjem wrote:All that experience should have taught them something. What is the point of experience if you are not paying attention to the lessons learned. Experience doesn't mean shit if you don't learn from it. Perhaps that will no longer be the case for these two anymore.

Agreed. Sometimes that experience tells you not to go in the first place is conditions are poor, or if you day the day will exceed your fitness or level of acclimatization. It should also prompt you to consider conditions as you ascend so you don't climb yourself into a situation where rescue if the only option.

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