Alpynisto wrote:The whole concept of a lactate threshold is pretty outdated in sports science. A decade ago, it was all the rage but now they realize that lactate is not a limiter of performance and at best is a secondary measure of what is really going on. You don't need blood tests to understand and benefit from interval training. And a VO2max test really tells you nothing. If you want to be methodical, just get a good HRM that lets you download to the computer. Or just do fartleks and don't worry about all that stuff.

From my layman's understanding, what's outdated is the idea that lactic acid is the cause of fatigue, when in fact lactate is recycled for energy. However, there's still a threshold beyond which lactate production exceeds the body's ability to process it, and fatigue is associated with that threshold even though the precise cause has not been isolated from among the various things that go on at that point.

You should be able to get a rough idea of your lactate threshold just from subjective judgment of your effort level, it's been described as "comfortably hard" with fast but controlled breathing. See http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/training2.htm. It's specific to runners, but informative.

I've long suspected the VO2 max is relevant to Big Time Alpine climbers.

The normal person has a 4 -5 liter lung capacity.

http://www.seakayakermag.com/2003/03Oct/breath2.htm

Ed Veisteurs has a 7 liter lung capacity. So this may be important to deciding whether on not to drag the Oxygen cans up an 8000 meter peak. Whether you should even attempt an Oxygen free ascent. T

John Duffield wrote:I've long suspected the VO2 max is relevant to Big Time Alpine climbers.

The normal person has a 4 -5 liter lung capacity.

http://www.seakayakermag.com/2003/03Oct/breath2.htm

Ed Veisteurs has a 7 liter lung capacity. So this may be important to deciding whether on not to drag the Oxygen cans up an 8000 meter peak. Whether you should even attempt an Oxygen free ascent. T

I'm not sure lung capacity has much to do with it. My lung capacity is 7.2 liters and I am nothing special at altitude.

VO2 max does not predict good performance at altitudes. Also, just for the record, Reinhold messner only had a VO2 max of 48.8 mlO2/(kg*min).

It is true...the VO2 is more a matter of curiosity for me at this moment to compare it with the result of 15 years ago when I was a runner and not a climber..
I trust more the blood lactate test as benchmarking, because I know enough professional runners who still use this parameter.
By the way the HHS Center appears to be very professional, they conduct the lactate blood test in the right way, analyzing blood serum at intervals during exercise at different levels.
The cost for the VO2 max and Lactate test combined is also less than in other places $250
Thank all for the discussion and suggestions...

FortMental wrote:

jordansahls wrote:VO2 max does not predict good performance at altitudes. Also, just for the record, Reinhold messner only had a VO2 max of 48.8 mlO2/(kg*min).

Yeah...that's sounds right. Where did you see that, anyway?

The author briefly touches on it in this book...



Also, here is a very interesting research paper, unfortunatly only the abstract is available to the public.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/a ... /60/5/1734

*******************************************************
Physiological profile of world-class high-altitude climbers
O. Oelz, H. Howald, P. E. Di Prampero, H. Hoppeler, H. Claassen, R. Jenni, A. Buhlmann, G. Ferretti, J. C. Bruckner, A. Veicsteinas and al. et


The functional characteristics of six world-class high-altitude mountaineers were assessed 2-12 mo after the last high-altitude climb. Each climber on one or several occasions had reached altitudes of 8,500 m or above without supplementary O2. Static and dynamic lung volumes and right and left echocardiographic measurements were found to be within normal limits of sedentary controls (SC). Muscle fiber distribution was 70% type I, 22% type IIa, and 7% type IIb. Mean muscle fiber cross-sectional area was significantly smaller than that of SC (-15%) and of long-distance runners (LDR, -51%). The number of capillaries per unit cross-sectional area was significantly greater than that of SC (+ 40%). Total mitochondrial volume was not significantly different from that of SC, but its subsarcolemmal component was equal to that of LDR. Average maximal O2 consumption was 60 +/- 6 ml X kg-1 X min-1, which is between the values of SC and LDR. Average maximal anaerobic power was 28 +/- 2.5 W X kg-1, which is equal to that of SC and 40% lower that that of competitive high jumpers. All subjects were characterized by resting hyperventilation both in normoxia and in moderate (inspired O2 partial pressure = 77 Torr) hypoxia resulting in higher oxyhemoglobin saturation levels in hypoxia. The ventilatory response to four tidal volumes of pure O2 was similar to that of SC. It is concluded that elite high-altitude climbers do not have physiological adaptations to high altitude that justify their unique performance. *********************************************************************

edit: bolded for emphasis

climbxclimb wrote:It is true...the VO2 is more a matter of curiosity for me at this moment to compare it with the result of 15 years ago when I was a runner and not a climber..
I trust more the blood lactate test as benchmarking, because I know enough professional runners who still use this parameter.
By the way the HHS Center appears to be very professional, they conduct the lactate blood test in the right way, analyzing blood serum at intervals during exercise at different levels.
The cost for the VO2 max and Lactate test combined is also less than in other places $250
Thank all for the discussion and suggestions...

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.

What did your insurance company say?

kheegster wrote:

climbxclimb wrote:It is true...the VO2 is more a matter of curiosity for me at this moment to compare it with the result of 15 years ago when I was a runner and not a climber..
I trust more the blood lactate test as benchmarking, because I know enough professional runners who still use this parameter.
By the way the HHS Center appears to be very professional, they conduct the lactate blood test in the right way, analyzing blood serum at intervals during exercise at different levels.
The cost for the VO2 max and Lactate test combined is also less than in other places $250
Thank all for the discussion and suggestions...

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.

What did your insurance company say?

The insurance United Healthcare, said that they cover most blood test with the exclusion of some rare stuff required for legal issues, therefore I asked my primary physician to write a referral for the blood lactate test, at HHS will be the lactate test separately from the VO2 max therefore I can be partially reimbursed...I am not sure it will work...

VO2max is like 1 rep max bench press: It does give one indication of the strength of a muscle, but it's quite likely not relevant to whatever activity you're doing.

Still, its interesting. Observing changes in your absolute value (L/min) could be an indication of progress through interval training.

As others have said, there are more functional measures. Sure, lactic acid may not cause fatigue, but its associated. But take it a step further, and just say heart rate is associate with fatigue.

The higher heartrate you can maintain relative to your max heartrate will be a great indicator of fitness. How long can you maintain 80%, 90%, or 95% of your max? One should be able to maintain 80% for a long time. 90% for one hour would be really good.

Lung capacity generally isn't a limiting factor in performance, however it may be valuable at altitude. Being able to generate a higher pressure gradient would be beneficial of course!

kheegster wrote:

climbxclimb wrote:It is true...the VO2 is more a matter of curiosity for me at this moment to compare it with the result of 15 years ago when I was a runner and not a climber..
I trust more the blood lactate test as benchmarking, because I know enough professional runners who still use this parameter.
By the way the HHS Center appears to be very professional, they conduct the lactate blood test in the right way, analyzing blood serum at intervals during exercise at different levels.
The cost for the VO2 max and Lactate test combined is also less than in other places $250
Thank all for the discussion and suggestions...

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.

What did your insurance company say?

Another place were they perfom the tests at the same price and with same level of professionalism is at Adelphi University in Long Island, the person in charge of the program is Professor Robert Otto, the price is $250 like at HHS the test take abour 2 hours.