Alpynisto wrote:By now you are probably confused by the buffoonery of the Chief. Suffice to say he's full of shit.

Here are some more confused buffoons that are also full of shit. They all staunchly speak of, practice intensely and promote VO2Max, Lactate Threshold, Short Intense Interval and Strength Endurance Training in their books and active training programs.

Some are even active DOD (SPECWAR) Consultants and teach the dudes that FORTMENTAL speaks of, this exact same "full of shit" training protocol:

Mark promotes it in all of Chapt 5 of his book:

and has incorporated it as a very intricate component into his phenomenal elite climbing and ultra-endurance training program where some of the best alpinist/climbers that have set speed records at altitudes, go to train, prepare for and get/stay fit at:


This dude speaks of it for extreme ice work at altitude in his great training & technique book...

Let's not forget this buffoon either. Even Ed has incorporated it into his year round training routine.


This full of shit dude shares his personal training routine. Though not "altitude" specific, he promotes just this type of short intensity VO2 Max endurance training as well in the last chapter of his in depth book...

BTW, M Twight participated in the local Big E-Challenge a couple of years ago. Ran into him at the end on Day 2 in Big Pine. Asked him what he thought of the deal, his reply was simply..."This is the real deal and it definitely kicks the living shit outta ya!"

Here is what the buffoon full of shit Twight has to say about all this....
"Yeah, a diet of 20-minute workouts got me through the Iron Horse Classic and the Everest Challenge ... and if you believe that I know a guy who's selling a bridge ..."

Oh yeah, almost forgot, this Buffoon speaks of and promotes it throughout his classic training book

So I think I will stay in line and company with these buffoons that are all soooooooo full of shit as well.

***PS: This training protocol isn't for everyone as it takes hardcore discipline, mental/physical consistency and dedication in order for it to be effective.***

Remember, having a high VO2 Max does not guarantee that you will be able to physically attain the summit you're after -- you may still be someone who suffers from HAPE, HACE or other altitude-related illness -- BUT your chances of success are significantly increased the fitter you are and the more comfortable your body is working at all intensity levels (including those near anaerobic threshold!).

Totally agree.

From Dr. Chuck Houston's very informative book...

Several comments and included altitude physiological studies (Chuck Fulco US ARMY Research Inst) indicate that ....

a. "Max work capacity (V02 Max) decreases about 1% per year after the 40's, but this decline can be slowed or arrested, possibly even reversed, by regular intense aerobic exercise."

b. "Physical Fitness does not equate to better altitude tolerance...but, the fit climbers moves and works more fuel efficiently, uses less 02 and in most cases is more 02-and-fuel efficient at altitude. This certainly suggest, if it does not prove, that the fit climber might do better in the low 02 atmosphere of the high mountains. Logically and theoretically this is true. It is equally true the the fit experienced and skillful climber moves more easily than does the amateur... And, obviously, by being able to climb more rapidly, the fit and experienced climber will be in harm's way for a shorter time."

c. "those (athletes/climbers) planning to compete in endurance events at altitude, will probably benefit from training at altitude. Thus, live high and train high theory certainly suggests that the fit climber might do better at altitude."

d. "Levine concluded from several well controlled studies that combining high altitude acclimatization with low altitude interval/intense training in well trained/fit competitive runners results in significant improvements in both sea-level and altitude 5000m times above and beyond sea-level and altitude controls."

The Chief wrote:Because it works.

Try it and practice it with consistency for 6 months and then tell me it doesn't.

Till then, please, all of you, unless you have actually applied this training protocol and it has in fact failed, please quit spewing that it doesn't.

Oh I have.. I do plenty of very painful cardio, and my VO2 max is pretty much at its upper limit, 5.4 L/min (I'm 6' tall).

Relative VO2 is more important for performance (64 ml/kg/min), but be careful about interpretation. It does not indicate cardiovascular fitness alone, but a combination of fitness and weight. Heart size is not dependent on how much fat / muscle you add / lose, but your relative value will change. Because of weightlifting I weight 190 now but I used to weigh 150, you could imagine the change in relative VO2max by that alone...but it doesn't change my cardiovascular system.

Weight alone is important, and very important at altitude, because a heavier person needs more oxygen for a given body frame. That will make it harder to acclimate.

When I went up Whitney (dayhike), I got quite sick on top even though the trail was not hard. No fatigue, just nausea. Being in great shape doesn't stop that from happening.

But having more weight and workload probably makes it worse. So if you really want to be good at altitude, be really skinny

Ze wrote:

The Chief wrote:Because it works.

Try it and practice it with consistency for 6 months and then tell me it doesn't.

Till then, please, all of you, unless you have actually applied this training protocol and it has in fact failed, please quit spewing that it doesn't.

Oh I have.. I do plenty of very painful cardio, and my VO2 max is pretty much at its upper limit, 5.4 L/min (I'm 6' tall).

Relative VO2 is more important for performance (64 ml/kg/min), but be careful about interpretation. It does not indicate cardiovascular fitness alone, but a combination of fitness and weight. Heart size is not dependent on how much fat / muscle you add / lose, but your relative value will change. Because of weightlifting I weight 190 now but I used to weigh 150, you could imagine the change in relative VO2max by that alone...but it doesn't change my cardiovascular system.

Weight alone is important, and very important at altitude, because a heavier person needs more oxygen for a given body frame. That will make it harder to acclimate.

When I went up Whitney (dayhike), I got quite sick on top even though the trail was not hard. No fatigue, just nausea. Being in great shape doesn't stop that from happening.

But having more weight and workload probably makes it worse. So if you really want to be good at altitude, be really skinny

I believe that ones realistic and proportional "Body Mass/BF%" in relation to muscle/fat % and height, not weight, are the key. I am 65", weigh 165 but my standing BF% floats around 11-12%. My thighs measure 24.5", Biceps at 14.5", waist 30" and chest is a burly 44".

Also, one's lungs in-take capacity/transfer & heart capacity/performance, plays a big part at altitude, according to Fulco's V02 Max altitude performance studies. This is of course is achieved through regular and intensity/interval aerobic training and genetics. Intense Training to achieve ones max VO2 Max potential, is a very critical component to this level of performance at altitude, according to this study.


I have had more "skinny" unfit folks fail at altitude than normal sized fit folks, btw.

The Chief wrote:I believe that ones realistic and proportional "Body Mass/BF%" in relation to muscle/fat % and height, not weight, are the key. I am 65", weigh 165 but my standing BF% floats around 11-12%. My thighs measure 24.5", Biceps at 14.5", waist 30" and chest is a burly 44".

Also, one's lungs in-take capacity/transfer & heart capacity/performance, plays a big part at altitude, according to Fulco's V02 Max altitude performance studies. This is of course is achieved through regular and intensity/interval aerobic training and genetics. Intense Training to achieve ones max VO2 Max potential, is a very critical component to this level of performance at altitude, according to this study.


I have had more "skinny" unfit folks fail at altitude than normal sized fit folks, btw.

lol nice "stats".

I mention height / frame because that is related to your VO2 "potential". A 5' tall person is going to have perhaps almost 1/2 the VO2 consumption of a 6' tall person. Naturally, taller people have bigger hearts.

if you add muscle, your heart doesn't get bigger. I get the benefit of muscle - but from an endurance performance aspect you basically only want what you absolutely need - and this is seen clearly in the body composition of endurance athletes! More muscle just means more work & energy you have to use.

Who is Fulco? Have any links to his stuff? I definitely believe lung capacity relative to weight would be a factor in performance at altitude, wondering what training actually makes it improve. Perhaps one minute intervals could do this, 1 min at 9 mph 15% at end of the workout makes my breathing seem "turbulent".

Ze wrote:Who is Fulco? Have any links to his stuff?

Surprised that in all your work you have never come across C.S. Fulco as he is one of the premiere Altitude 02 Physiology Performance researchers.

Here is CS Fulco's bio & some Altitude V02 Max/Performance Research Work:

a. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... co%20CS%22[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstract]

b. http://www.biomedexperts.com/Profile.bm ... es_S_Fulco

Dr. Houston cites some of his VO2 Max research at altitude in his book.


On an interesting note, stopped in at the local Performance Lab and asked them what % of folks that they have evaluated were at their Max V02 when initially tested.

They told me that their records for the past 4 years indicated less than 5% of all subsequent follow-up clients (those that had established a base evaluation and returned with follow-up evals after training) had actually recorded an equal level V02 Max. 95% had actually increased their level. Some by as much as 18%. All this after they were set-up with a training routine/protocol to increase their aerobic capacity/lactate threshold abilities and in turn, their V02 Max.

The Chief wrote:Surprised that in all your work you have never come across C.S. Fulco as he is one of the premiere Altitude 02 Physiology Performance researchers.

Here is CS Fulco's bio & some Altitude V02 Max/Performance Research Work:

a. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... co%20CS%22[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstract]

b. http://www.biomedexperts.com/Profile.bm ... es_S_Fulco

Dr. Houston cites some of his VO2 Max research at altitude in his book.


On an interesting note, stopped in at the local Performance Lab and asked them what % of folks that they have evaluated were at their Max V02 when initially tested.

They told me that their records for the past 4 years indicated less than 5% of all subsequent follow-up clients (those that had established a base evaluation and returned with follow-up evals after training) had actually recorded an equal level V02 Max. 95% had actually increased their level. Some by as much as 18%. All this after they were set-up with a training routine/protocol to increase their aerobic capacity/lactate threshold abilities and in turn, their V02 Max.

Yeah actually after I asked that, I thought 'hey why don't I just look up in pubmed?' which I did...Lots of cool abstracts (and some of the article are freely accessible, if anyone is interested). Lotta good stuff on effect of altitude on performance. In one older study they looked into and couldn't rule out fatiguing of respiratory muscles as a limiting factor at altitude (as they are trying to create greater and greater pressure differentials) which I think is interesting, maybe I should look up more recent research on that.

As for VO2max and effect on acclimatization, I didn't find anything on it browsing over those search hits. Maybe I missed one though.

A 20% increase in VO2max before / after training seems about right to me.

Ze wrote:As for VO2max and effect on acclimatization, I didn't find anything on it browsing over those search hits. Maybe I missed one though.

A 20% increase in VO2max before / after training seems about right to me.

Per the OP...

tyler4588 wrote:I'm curious about what everybody's thoughts are on VO2 Max training, and how it relates to climbing at altitude. I seem to have a hard time acclimating sometimes, and I wonder if improving my VO2 Max would help with that at all. If so, would anybody recommend a specific workout routine or something?

It's not just about acclimatization. It is also about "more efficient over-all 02 transfer efficiency & performance at altitude" as Houston remarks in his book. As Houston indicates in Chapt. 15 (Fulco's comments are in line with Houston's), it is really a two headed monster where one's over-all cardio fitness can indeed affect and only better both ones acclimatization process and their over-all aerobic climbing performance at altitude.

- Yu'll find Fulco's research comments/opinions regarding V02Max and altitude performance remarks in Houston's book on pg.247 from his 1988 study.

- A 20% increase in V02 Max equates to a more efficient over-all cardio/aerobic climbing performance at altitude. Thus reducing time in "Harms Way" once again, according to Houston.

The Chief wrote:It's not just about acclimatization. It is also about "more efficient over-all 02 transfer efficiency & performance at altitude" as Houston remarks in his book. As Houston indicates in Chapt. 15 (Fulco's comments are in line with Houston's), it is really a two headed monster where one's over-all cardio fitness can indeed affect and only better both ones acclimatization process and their over-all aerobic climbing performance at altitude.

- Yu'll find Fulco's research comments/opinions regarding V02Max and altitude performance remarks in Houston's book on pg.247 from his 1988 study.

- A 20% increase in V02 Max equates to a more efficient over-all cardio/aerobic climbing performance at altitude. Thus reducing time in "Harms Way" once again, according to Houston.

No doubt an increase in % VO2 max can increase performance. But that alone doesn't mean that it improves acclimatization. I can go pretty fast at altitude because of a high lactate threshold, but I will get very sick if I try! Anyways, I'll have to get a hold of that book to read what exactly they are saying about this.

Ze wrote:No doubt an increase in % VO2 max can increase performance. But that alone doesn't mean that it improves acclimatization. I can go pretty fast at altitude because of a high lactate threshold, but I will get very sick if I try! Anyways, I'll have to get a hold of that book to read what exactly they are saying about this.

I will tell ya that every individual has their own acclimatization engram process.

I will look for Fulco's study that indicates how those that move up and down to altitude to work/train/compete/climb on a regular basis, become more accustomed to the acclimatization process and it becomes easier with each new cycle.

I know that since moving up here to just under 8K permanently, eight years ago, and running up to 11-12k on an almost daily basis since, my process has become so much easier to the point where I don't feel the lack of 02 any more as I ascend to work/climb/ski above 12 to 14k.

Last season alone I did over 9 C-C technical climbs from 8 to just under 15k (Whitney), in less than 16 hours or better, with absolutely zero neg affects on the ascents...none.

My boss, who is constantly running around globally to much higher altitudes (20K plus) regularly, on his Seven Summit guided gigs, has never shown any ALS symptoms locally on any 14er trip that I have accompanied him on.

I know several local Patrolers and work mates that live in Bishop, 4Kish, that drive up then work up to and at 11k daily, with no ill effects.

Something to consider in all this and also what Fulco and other altitude physio's speak of in engrams and general altitude adaptation acclimatization fitness.

Hi, just want to refreash this subject.
sorry for my english, its not my native language.

somebody asked why(or if) higher VO2max helps in acclimatization process.
it definitly helps you perform better on altitude. its actually pretty simple:

"VO2 max decreases as altitude increases above 1600m (5249ft) or about the altitude of Denver, Colorado. For every 1000m (3281ft) above that, maximal oxygen uptake decreases further by approximately 8-11% (3). Anyone with a VO2 max lower than 50 ml/kg/min would struggle to survive at the summit of Everest without supplemental oxygen.

The decrease is mainly due to a decrease in maximal cardiac output. Recall that cardiac output is the product of heart rate and stroke volume. Stoke volume decreases due to the immediate decrease in blood plasma volume. Maximal heart rate may also decrease and the net effect is that less oxygen is "pushed" from the blood into the muscles "

I got it from http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html. more reliable soure, where u can read excatly the same is book "going higher, man, oxygen and moutnains" probably the most professinal poublication right now.

it pretty clear that its fairly imposible to climb everest no oxygen with V02max less then 50. it will defnitly help if you have high V02mac. question is, if sb with exceptionaly high V02max, lets say 85, could possibly run on top of Everest? probably not as there are several diffrent factors that prevent us to function well on this altitude. but on the other side, such person, could definitly set a speed record ascent.
for the record, Ed Visturs has 66. I am sure that messner had over 60 too.

there are people who respond well for V02max traning and there are poor responders. this is probably genetic. but in both ways, there will be always SOME improvement. it could be 4% , could be 70% or even more.

somebody already said. what u can do BEFORE going to altitude
- lose weight (and proper diet)
- build strengh only in muscle you need(legs,bags)
- v02max and endurance traning specific for mountaneering

from my own experience. I had always problem with acclimatization. strong headaches over 4000m, had HAPE in basecamp on Aconcagua -4500m.
since then I improved dramaticly. climbed few mountians over 6000m with fast summit attacks.
hope that willl help
TK

TomekK wrote:I am sure that messner had over 60 too. TK

Several sources state it was just 48.8, which is about average.

TomekK wrote:somebody asked why(or if) higher VO2max helps in acclimatization process.
it definitly helps you perform better on altitude. its actually pretty simple:

it's not that simple. actually. people aren't maxing out in endurance activity, they are always exercising at submaximal levels. at submaximal levels, it's not about cardiac output, but ability for oxygen to transfer from lungs to blood and bind. which is dependent on oxygen partial pressure, and other stuff I don't understand.

of course VO2max decreases at altitude. that is an effect. so is dry skin.

Ignore VO2max. LOSE USELESS WEIGHT. exercise strenuously. improve movement efficiency. maybe improve lung capacity. those are way more important.

Ze wrote:LOSE USELESS WEIGHT.

Bad advice for high altitude climbing. Fine for little stuff (<15k) but extra body fat is often beneficial on longer expeditions to the big peaks.