The self-righteous mentality of do as you want wherever you want, aint gonna work any longer folks. Especially within the confines of any urban location where areas are set aside, protected and watched over by the Man/Tools/LEO's or whatever ya'll want to call em.

Barren protected plots within urban areas that are set aside and protected as enviro's for the local rare indigenous fauna and wildlife, are not the place to go running into in order to slam in an outdoor climbing gym.

I see this disease of Grid Bolting, mass route inserting and everything that goes along with it, proliferating all over. Totally disregarding any local, State or Fed rules & regs.

If ya got a Pwer Drill, some bolts and hangers, ya go an slam in the some routes. In most cases, smack dab right where the rest of the folks have banged in their signatures.

The Gym mentality has truly brought a fervor of destruction within the Climbing Community. Many believe that the same Gym philosophy should exist in the urban outdoor environment, regardless of local enviro ethics.

I am afraid that this situ, along with the one at Williamson Rock, X-Mas Tree Pass etc is the beginning of what is to come from the local and Fed Tools that are charged with the care of the area.

They have to answer to the masses. All it takes is one Enviro Group to formulate a lawsuit within the guidelines of local environmental protocols, and they, the TOOLS have no choice but to ablige their cries.

Until the local Climbing Communities begins to govern and enforce some established rule/ethics that parallel those of the local Land Mgers, work together with the Tools, many more areas will fall prey to these signs and closures.

Fighting the Tool is losing battle.

Working proactively with them, is a winning one. Trust me. Been there and done that locally. I continue to do so and it surely makes the difference between cooperation, keeping areas open/accessible and closures.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Most every cliff I've ever visited, that has established routes, also has one or more climber created trails to get there. Public lands or otherwise.

The Forefathers did it... had to do it, to get to the climbs, to get up them.

The 'don'tchya dare cut that thorn bush' attitude is actually fairly new and pretty much restricted to ONE generation, the one that's headed out; mine.

I don't think subsequent generations are going to be hand wringing over a little brush clearing.

DMT

Dingus..... those trails are made by wild animals. True?

The best trail ever is the one going to Book Rock in the Kern. A local activist, who is pretty well connected with the FS. Was able to get a whole Fire Crew to cut a 15 wide tail through the cow brush. So when you walk up there you don't need to touch the tic laden brush.

now thats what I call good climber- land manager relations.

The Chief wrote:The self-righteous mentality of do as you want wherever you want, aint gonna work any longer folks. Especially within the confines of any urban location where areas are set aside, protected and watched over by the Man/Tools/LEO's or whatever ya'll want to call em.

Barren protected plots within urban areas that are set aside and protected as enviro's for the local rare indigenous fauna and wildlife, are not the place to go running into in order to slam in an outdoor climbing gym.

I see this disease of Grid Bolting, mass route inserting and everything that goes along with it, proliferating all over. Totally disregarding any local, State or Fed rules & regs.

If ya got a Pwer Drill, some bolts and hangers, ya go an slam in the some routes. In most cases, smack dab right where the rest of the folks have banged in their signatures.

The Gym mentality has truly brought a fervor of destruction within the Climbing Community. Many believe that the same Gym philosophy should exist in the outdoor environment thus are given the license to do so.

I am afraid that this situ, along with the one at Williamson Rock, X-Mas Tree Pass etc is the beginning of what is to come from the local and Fed Tools that are charged with the care of the area.

They have to answer to the masses. All it takes is one Enviro Group to formulate a lawsuit within the guidelines of local environmental protocols, and they, the TOOLS have no choice but to ablige their cries.

Until the local Climbing Communities begins to govern and enforce some established rule/ethics that parallel those of the local Land Mgers, work together with the Tools, many more areas will fall prey to these signs and closures.

Fighting the Tool is losing battle.

Working proactively with them, is a winning one. Trust me. Been there and done that locally. I continue to do so and it surely makes the difference between cooperation, keeping areas open/accessible and closures.

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000. (trillion right?)

well put.

Seems that the LNT concept is just yak amongst many urbanites.

That it only applies at 12k or above in designated Wilderness Areas and not in their very own backyards where it is far more critical to be strictly followed.

Guyzo wrote:+ 1,000,000,000,000,000. (trillion right?)

Nope. Not a trillion.

BTW...

Where are the local ACCESS FUND guru's in all this???????

And Dingus,

This all stems from a lack of education in the Gyms where LNT is not even considered as a subject.

Hell, the new generation can't even go one minute without that Cell device being manipulated in one way or another.

Lack of edu in the consideration of consequences from ones behavior and actions is no longer taught at any grade level within the schools.

So, what do ya expect from the ignorant ones that are accessing these areas?

Now, if the culprits are those that know better, have been around long enough and know the gig, then they need to be chastised to the max and their names exposed to all of us old timers that do our best to keep the flame of ethics and respect for the rock alive.

BTW, LNT is the Rule of Law. Look at the back of any WP or Access Permit for any plot of land that is under the charge of any "Tool". Ask Doug Robinson about this finite Black and White law.

I agree that some of this is the result of folks trying to make $$$$$$$ off of climbing.

And I think all guides and climbing gyms need to teach more than just knots and belaying....

I feel like "we climbers" ( that means anybody who goes outside and goes up-hill) do have a responsibility to take care of our "places".

..... GK

And McConnel....... a trillion is to big a number for me to figure out........ My kid told me a trillion seconds ago.... would put you back in Roman times.

please write it out for me. How many zeros?

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Thanks. I understand LNT just fine. Its a good principle but sadly, too often succumbs to 'do as I say, not as I did.' Even WITHIN the federal land management agencies, there is a pervasive attitude that LNT is for 'the other guy.'

**************************************************

Of course gym-bred climbers seek to take their experience out doors. They are encouraged to do so, on this very board and elsewhere, where they are mocked for climbing in a gym to begin with.

DMT

It is the Law. Justification and excuses why many do not respect it is no reason for not doing so.

They are mocked not for climbing in the Gym. Rather, for attempting to transcend the Indoor Gym Ideals out into the Natural outdoor environment. Two completely different concepts with completely different set of rules.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:I don't think subsequent generations are going to be hand wringing over a little brush clearing.

Correct me if my impression is incorrect, but subsequent generations don't much care about littering, either, do they?

butitsadryheat wrote:
You want our kids to learn that there are consequences to our actions?!?! How DARE you!

Think of their self-esteem! Restrictions lower self-esteem!

Guyzo wrote:please write it out for me. How many zeros?

Either 1 000 000 000 000 or 1 000 000 000 000 000 000, depending on if you're short or long.


When did this thread turn into a bunch of old guys complaining about the kids playing on their lawn?