The Chief wrote:

Catamount wrote:I hope Chief does blow a gasket over this question, but every time I see him bring up the incident with his client, I find myself asking what would prevent a "professional guide" from carrying a portable defibrillator in a warm weather guiding situation. No they're not cheap, but they're also not heavy and can certainly save lives in backcountry situations. Guides work with folks of all fitness levels and it only stands to reason that there will be occasional heart problems. Don't know if it would have worked in that particular situation ...

In my line of work, I always have one handy.

Good question.

Unfortunately, with this particular HAPE incident, or any other involving HAPE, it would have served absolutely no good as his lungs were completely filled with liquid when I initiated Pulmonary Resuscitation as he did have a faint HB. After a minute of initiating PR, I no longer felt any signs of a HB and then engaged in full on CPR.

We discussed this option during the ensuing investigation and it is actually in the consideration/planning stages.

And Kevin Trieu, as soon as myself and my fellow guide observed the initial and obvious AMS symptoms indicating a potential onset of HAPE, I immediately turned him and myself around, began the process of descending quickly and took measures of returning to the P/L in order to him down to LP immediately. Unfortunately, his HAPE had progressed at such a high rate, that time was not on his side.

Thanks for the informative response.

The Chief wrote:

PellucidWombat wrote:If I don't go straight up from sea level, I almost always start my climbs by sleeping at ca. 10,000 ft, and found 12,000 ft to be my limit for a good night sleep for my first night up at altitude.

This practice does not allow for anyone's body time to acclimate properly, regardless how they "feel".

I live at 7200' and I will not go any higher than 12K my first night, never. In most if not all cases, I go no higher than 10K for my first night. Prior to my moving up here permanently, I would never go any higher than 4-5K the first night and then no higher than 8K the 2nd. I learned my lesson 20 some years ago when I went high too fast and came down with some severe AMS symptoms and started to cough up a red froth uncontrollably. All this at 9K on my 2nd eve.

What is the Service's standard acclimatization schedule? I understand that 1st night is in LP, 2nd night at the LBSL which is around 10k'. Do you agree with this schedule? Based on your response above, you don't.

The Chief wrote:I have to admit that SEVEN HOURS is a lengthy amount of time when it comes to getting someone off the hill.

I only wish that I had SEVEN HOURS with Jack. I would have most certainly gotten him down to LP Hospital, no more than a total of 3 hours from the location where he had collapsed. They may have administered the proper actions that could have saved his life.

And how many hours away is a hospital from the summit of Mt. Shasta for a climber who cannot walk or see? In calm conditions? IMHO, Tom would only have been saved if it were by an immediate helicopter evac, which still would have probably taken some time to muster, could only have been done in calm conditions. Even then, considering the severity of his HACE, I wonder how much brain damage he would have received by the time they got him down, considering how severe the onset was. Frankly, I'd rather die up there from HACE than to be saved but have my mind destroyed.

In our case the 100mph winds had shifted 90 degrees winds had shut off the possibility of descending Avvy Gulch, which was our emergency descent route, and it took me over 24 hours to get down the mountain in those conditions on the remaining viable routes, and I was in tip-top shape.

*Addition: By the time it was apparent that rescuers would not be able to reach us to assist in getting Tom down (the SAR operator told us to stay put and wait for a call which I did not receive as my phone failed to regain reception), he was mostly unconscious, so at that point I would have had to drag him down. Since it took me an hour to drag him down 50 ft, over 50 ft, and up 6 ft into the snowcave in an area where the winds were mild, I wonder how long it would have taken me to drag Tom 7,000 ft down to a hospital? And if we went down the north side (which was the only viable route by then), I'd have to drag him down 9,000 ft and 14 miles in soft snow just to get to our car.

Also, based on the outcome, it is my opinion that if I had attempted to drag Tom down any other route, we would have been caught out in the open in the storm that broke, without shelter, in a far more dangerous area. I would have been less likely to survive and even if I did, Tom's body might still be missing up there as it would be in a harder to find and reach location. Staying on the summit kept us easy to reach by helicopter, easy to locate, and allowed us more options for descent than if we had rushed down the mountain in a panic earlier and risked getting stranded.

4K the first night and then 8 hours of hiking to attain 3-5 miles and 9-10K. Correct. We do emphasize to all the clients that it would behoove them to plan accordingly and to arrive 2-3 days prior to the scheduled trip and do spend at least one to two days hiking around the Portal or on any local trails that are at 7-8k. Many in fact do this as a pre-trip evolution. This ends up working out perfectly and to their advantage.

In addition to the above, when we commence our hike up, if at anytime any client indicates that they may be having any kind of difficulty/symptom, we will address the issue immediately. We will also monitor them regularly and immediately turn them around with a fellow guide and get them down to LP ASAP when at anytime we observe any symptoms/indications of AMS. I have done this on numerous occasions with positive results.

PellucidWombat wrote:In our case the 100mph winds had shifted 90 degrees winds had shut off the possibility of descending Avvy Gulch...

What was the time frame that it took for the winds to achieve these speeds?

Also, how long have you been climbing in the Sierra?

ericwillhite wrote:If I can't control my destiny on the mountain, I won't do it.

If you really think you have total control over every element of your life (mountain climbing included), you're deluding yourself.

ericwillhite wrote:For me, HACE isn't so unpredictable. I am a serious candidate for HACE. I do not acclimate well. I have never done well sleeping at high altitude...

Had Marks climbing partner ever camped that high? How much experience did he have with his body at high altitude? Is it not reasonable to suggest there was a risk there. I consider it a risk any time someone camps/bivys that high, especially after high exertion. Exertion, you eating and drinking....all big factors in how your body reacts above 12,000 feet. I have driven up 2 Colorado 14ers, hiked trails up easy ones as well as Mt. Whitney. These require little exertion so I felt just fine on top...but I still wouldn't camp there. I just know my body....from experience. So I just don't subscribe to the theory we did everything right. No you took a risk, and lost, under my rules of climb high, sleep low. Marks climbing team didn't have this rule. I would claim based on lack of experience at high altitude and knowing how their body's could react.

I believe that there is enough information out there that you should have been able to learn that Tom had worked at high altitude in the Andes, seemingly without a hitch. Two weekends before the incident he was rocking ice climbing at 9,000ft. He was at 6,000 ft. on weekends throughout the winter. In conclusion, no, it's actually not that reasonable to suggest that there was a risk there. I know a good number of people that live in coastal California, go up on the weekends, climb high, sleep high, & go back to sea level. Just because your body doesn't react well to altitude doesn't mean that is how it is for everyone else.

ericwillhite wrote: You took huge risk climbing a route with the intention of down climbing a different route. That is standard mountaineering 101. Again, there is nothing wrong with doing this, just don't act so shocked when you reach the other side to find the conditions are totally different than what you came up.

They didn't have the intention of coming down a different route. "Standard mountaineering 101???" How about top alpinists who do a severe route up a mountain then descend the 'standard' routes (this is standard practice for doing technical routes, btw)? Do they not know what they're doing? Could they perhaps learn something from you?

ericwillhite wrote:Also, your reliance on the weather forecasters seems as bad as my reliance on the media reports. You can't put your trust in those things. The big storm that restricted rescuers from reaching your friends [sic] body could have come a day early. Then you still would have been stranded on the summit for a few days, possibly calling 911 for help. It happens every year on cascade volcanos. Any decision to camp up there places you at the mercy of mother nature.....not the weather mans [sic] predictions. Don't you see the pattern here.[sic]

By this reasoning, it is never safe to be on a mountain, because you can never predict when the next storm is going to come in. Honestly, maybe you should just stay out of the mountains to begin with.

Climbers from Bonatti to Messner to House have all risked when they've undertaken great challenges. Significant climbs, no, mountaineering in general wouldn't exist under your imaginary safety net system. Using an accident to learn from is very important, & every incident has lessons that can be learned. Your inflammatory, vitriolic bullshit, however, is worthless.

The Chief wrote:4K the first night and then 8 hours of hiking to attain 3-5 miles and 9-10K. Correct. We do emphasize to all the clients that it would behoove them to plan accordingly and to arrive 2-3 days prior to the scheduled trip and do spend at least one to two days hiking around the Portal or on any local trails that are at 7-8k. Many in fact do this as a pre-trip evolution. This ends up working out perfectly and to their advantage.

In addition to the above, when we commence our hike up, if at anytime any client indicates that they may be having any kind of difficulty/symptom, we will address the issue immediately. We will also monitor them regularly and immediately turn them around with a fellow guide and get them down to LP ASAP when at anytime we observe any symptoms/indications of AMS. I have done this on numerous occasions with positive results.

PellucidWombat wrote:In our case the 100mph winds had shifted 90 degrees winds had shut off the possibility of descending Avvy Gulch...

What was the time frame that it took for the winds to achieve these speeds?

Also, how long have you been climbing in the Sierra?

I don't know how long it took the winds to achieve those speeds because it was not a uniform wind. The night before there was a strong wind stream clipping the summit top, but most of the mountain was relatively calm e.g. 20-30 mph lower on the Whitney Glacier, and no sustained wind or noticeable gusts for the last 700 ft to the summit plateau and on the plateau. For all we knew, the winds could have been blowing like that since the previous day. Winds were localized enough that we couldn't even tell that the winds had shifted the next day until we down climbed 100 ft, at which point our environment went from windless to 100mph winds.

I've been climbing in the Sierra for about 8 years, and I've spent some time in the CO rockies, Canadian Rockies, Wind Rivers, Wasatch, Tetons, Cascades, Adirondacks, and have made two trips to the Alaska range, and I've been around plenty high winds in the Wasatch and Tetons.

*Addition: My experience has been that of a SLC local and a 'weekend warrior' to these ranges, and taking some Avalanche and Mountaineering SAR and first-aid courses. I don't consider myself an expert in any of these ranges, though I try to actively educate myself as best I can.

As usual this forum has a way of over analyzing stuff. Seems to me PellucidWombat did the best he could given the circumstances, and its a shame he has to justify his actions on here still. In retrospect, it's always easy to say this or that should have been done, but that's just a waste of time, unless there is some lesson to be learned. In this case, I'm not sure there is at this point.

Mountaineering has inherent unpredictable risks and, yes, anytime you go up may be your last, regardless of who you are or what level you may be at in your skillset/fitness. That's always part of the game, and the bigger the challenge you take on, the more it comes in to play. We're kidding ourselves if we try to say it's not.

So, let's just learn what we can from these incidents to prevent future ones and then move on. Afterwards, just celebrate the lives of the adventurous souls that head into the mountains, regardless of the risk, to get one of the best experiences you can have of being alive - seems the best way to honor their memory.

Diggler wrote:I know a good number of people that live in coastal California, go up on the weekends, climb high, sleep high, & go back to sea level. Just because your body doesn't react well to altitude doesn't mean that is how it is for everyone else.

True, and the reason why I was a bit surprised by the expectation that Mark should have antcipated anything based on his rate of ascent, which seemed to me well within the norm, have done it many times myself. I'll certainly be more mindful of others I might be with and have less knowledge of though, so perhaps something useful came out of this, if anything.

The Chief wrote:4K the first night and then 8 hours of hiking to attain 3-5 miles and 9-10K. Correct. We do emphasize to all the clients that it would behoove them to plan accordingly and to arrive 2-3 days prior to the scheduled trip and do spend at least one to two days hiking around the Portal or on any local trails that are at 7-8k. Many in fact do this as a pre-trip evolution. This ends up working out perfectly and to their advantage.

the pre-trip evolution is optional? a client could go from 4k' 1st night then 10k' 2nd night?

Diggler wrote:I know a good number of people that live in coastal California, go up on the weekends, climb high, sleep high, & go back to sea level. Just because your body doesn't react well to altitude doesn't mean that is how it is for everyone else.

This is all a little bewildering to me, too. I and my partners routinely wake up at or near sea level, drive to a 6,500 foot trail head, don backpacks and hike up to overnight camp at 10,000 feet (Mt Baldy) or 11,500 feet (Mt San Gorgonio). A three-day Mt Langley climb begins, the day before the start, with a drive from sea level to spend the night at 10,000 foot Horseshoe Meadow (for some; personally, I prefer to spend the previous night in Lone Pine at 4,000 feet, then hike from 10,000 feet to Cottonwood Lakes to spend the night at 11,000 feet).

I had no idea until today that these practices were considered controversial.

ericwillhite wrote:
I don't believe much in coincidence, so let me make a final inflammatory remark. When the next "shit happens" to PellucidWombat, will he admit (if alive) that he has some judgment problems?

I would have Mark as my climbing partner 100 times over, I would never consider you Eric. Your impressive climbing resume does nothing for you character or your intelligence. If you have bothered to read all the posts here, you are on an island on this subject. But go ahead and keep spewing the garbage you have for an opinion. Just my opinion.

Neophiteat48 wrote:I would have Mark as my climbing partner 100 times over, I would never consider you Eric. Your impressive climbing resume does nothing for you character or your intelligence.

+48
Some folks here sure seem like they'd be great fun to go out with, maybe most even.

ericwillhite wrote:I don't believe much in coincidence, so let me make a final inflammatory remark. When the next "shit happens" to PellucidWombat, will he admit (if alive) that he has some judgment problems?

One thing that I find odd is that you seem to only be attacking me and my judgment. You have never referred to Tom, in general, or by name. He and I were EQUAL partners, and we discussed ALL decisions. I altered some of my plans/actions in the trip based on his suggestions, and vice-versa. Ultimately, all of the decisions made were not solely MY decisions until Tom developed HACE. They were OUR decisions.

Tom had a reputation for being a solid climber, who was extremely careful, and was very selective on who he climbed with. He chose to climb with me, and he and I worked together. He was not some naive guy following me up the hill. If I was an accident waiting to happen, then either Tom wouldn't have climbed with me, or he wouldn't have gone along with my reasoning and agreed with my decisions.

Yet you heap all of this on me. Why is that? Do you actually have boundaries? Is heaping self-aggrandizing shit on the dead something that is beyond your standards?

Have mercy, ladies, time to save the drama for the stage. Enough. Continuing to beat a dead horse will not make it more dead. The Law of Diminishing Returns has manifested itself in this discussion. Time to plan this weekend's climb - enjoy (and be safe)!

FortMental wrote:Gee Chief, I'm really really sorry that you've had seen too much 'shit happens' in the mountains. Maybe you should stay home and take a break. In fact we could all use a break from your pontificating on others' inability to "be careful out there".

Since you're the paragon of caution, how careful do you think you were you with your client that died (since we've heard this story about 12 million times). Did you do everything possible to prevent tragedy? So what if he lied to you about his abilities, couldn't you, with all of your collective mountain experience, assessed his abilities and seen through his fibs? He looked like an old guy.... how careful were you getting him to altitude? Why hadn't you brought proper medical equipment and foreseen such a situation? How do you like being second-guessed publicly by someone who doesn't know the facts? Shit, Chief, I wouldn't let you guide me to my mailbox....

Tired of picking up pieces of broken bodies? Do what normal people do when they hate doing stuff: STOP! You make a Jewish Grandmother look like an amateur in the martyrdom department.

Good consistent post!






Mark and all others out there, be careful, think things out and retreat when you sense that "shit may begin to hit the fan" only to return and attempt the summit another day.

Tom knew the risks. He chose to take them. We all do.