Kevin...

Anyone that has been through any real Guiding Certification Process, fully understands the true principals of guiding. You assume total responsibility and care of that/those individuals from start to finish.

The principal I speak of above should be strictly applied anywhere on this planet, regardless of range or logistic reqs. That is the way my Boss operates and that is why I work with him.

As I recall, tad bit below 12k or so at the well est BC of the red, white and blue painted & numbered Quanset huts above the resort after ya take the tram etc. Stayed in #6 actually. Had to follow the rules there. At least we did as we were there as invited guests of the Spetsnaz. I was still active duty and actually working when we did it.

Questions

Vitaliy M wrote:Can I join too? I will rent some $1 a week slaves to carry our gear up! Than we can take jet skis 90% up the mountain and maybe last 500M we could hike up in crampons, with an ice axe...if ''Chief" teaches us how to put them on and use it...should be fun guys!

OK, we're off to a good start. I can put together all the logistics. Now we just need a fourth climber to join who has about $250,000 US to pay for it all.

Anybody???????

P.S. Climbing experience not really required.

The Chief wrote:Kevin...

Anyone that has been through any real Guiding Certification Process, fully understands the true principals of guiding. You assume total responsibility and care of that/those individuals from start to finish.

The principal I speak of above should be strictly applied anywhere on this planet, regardless of range or logistic reqs. That is the way my Boss operates and that is why I work with him.

As I recall, tad bit below 12k or so at the well est BC of the red, white and blue painted & numbered Quanset huts above the resort after ya take the tram etc. Stayed in #6 actually. Had to follow the rules there. At least we did as we were there as invited guests of the Spetsnaz. I was still active duty and actually working when we did it.

Questions

Did your boss and client carry all their gear and set up all their own fixed rope on Everest? Did hire a sherpa or two?

You took the tram up? Why didn't you start climbing Elbrus from the 7,000' elevation at the start of the tram? Was the host's rules that you have to take the tram to 12,000' in order to climb the mountain?

kevin trieu wrote:Did your boss and client carry all their gear and set up all their own fixed rope on Everest? Did hire a sherpa or two?

You took the tram up? Why didn't you start climbing Elbrus from the 7,000' elevation at the start of the tram? Was the host's rules that you have to take the tram to 12,000' in order to climb the mountain?

Did you read the post Kevin??

Can't answer the first one... never been there with him on those situ's because I refuse to ever go and partake in the mass humanity of it all. Sitting around some BC with some 700+ ego summit driven people, is not my gig. But I will tell ya and reiterate this, the clients are no further than ten-fifteen feet away from him once on the hill, at all times, guaranteed.


Let me repost as those bus size boulders ya'll were knocking down two years ago for over two hours, may have just hit your head...

The Chief wrote:As I recall, tad bit below 12k or so at the well est BC of the red, white and blue painted & numbered Quanset huts above the resort after ya take the tram etc. Stayed in #6 actually. Had to follow the rules there. At least we did as we were there as invited guests of the Spetsnaz. I was still active duty and actually working when we did it.

My age...

Well, I retired from serving 24 years in the US Navy over 11 years ago and I am well over twice your age Vitaliy M. That should give you some clue.

The Chief wrote:

kevin trieu wrote:Did your boss and client carry all their gear and set up all their own fixed rope on Everest? Did hire a sherpa or two?

You took the tram up? Why didn't you start climbing Elbrus from the 7,000' elevation at the start of the tram? Was the host's rules that you have to take the tram to 12,000' in order to climb the mountain?

Did you read the post Kevin??

Can't answer the first one... never been there with him on those situs because I refuse to ever go and partake in the mass humanity of it all. But I will tell ya and reiterate this, the clients are no further than ten-fifteen feet away from him once on the hill, at all times, guaranteed.


Let me repost as those bus size boulders ya'll were knocking down two years ago for over two hours, may have just hit your head...

The Chief wrote:As I recall, tad bit below 12k or so at the well est BC of the red, white and blue painted & numbered Quanset huts above the resort after ya take the tram etc. Stayed in #6 actually. Had to follow the rules there. At least we did as we were there as invited guests of the Spetsnaz. I was still active duty and actually working when we did it.

My age...

Well, I retired from serving 24 years in the US Navy over 11 years ago and I am well over twice your age Vitaliy M. That should give you some clue.

I can. Your boss did hire sherpas. How do you feel about that?

Isn't it your stand that you shouldn't do anything that's against your principals and moral codes? And that all mountains should be climbed from the bottom and with no aid of any kind, in this case the aid of a tram. So you would go against your high standards & personal belief to follow rules? Why did you choose to climb that mountain if it went against your high standard of excellence?

kevin trieu wrote:I can. Your boss did hire sherpas. How do you feel about that?

Isn't it your stand that you shouldn't do anything that's against your principals and moral codes? And that all mountains should be climbed from the bottom and with no aid of any kind, in this case the aid of a tram. So you would go against your high standards & personal belief to follow rules? Why did you choose to climb that mountain if it went against your high standard of excellence?

Kevin, them boulders definitely did hit your skull. Either that, or you and Squishy are partaking in that skank weed, together.

The Boss knows my opinion on the Big Mtn deal. That is why I don't go and partake.

And once again, Kevin, I will repost the post that states why we did what we did and how we did it...

The Chief wrote:As I recall, tad bit below 12k or so at the well est BC of the red, white and blue painted & numbered Quanset huts above the resort after ya take the tram etc. Stayed in #6 actually. Had to follow the rules there. At least we did as we were there as invited guests of the Spetsnaz. I was still active duty and actually working when we did it.

Can I make it any clearer Kevin!

Unlike you Civilian Wall Streeter's, when military ops dictate the situ, you do as you are told and personal agendas nor morality are even considered into the picture. Now, do you know who and what the Spetsnaz are? Find out and that may just clarify your confusion.

Thank you Chief for being civil. You have made two things clear.

1. You are willing to work and support an organization in which you do not believe in their practices. And all this time you are asking people to boycott Black Diamond for having factories in China with labor practices you disagree with.

2. You are willing to abandon your personal belief to follow rules. And all this time you are adamantly protesting the Chinese soldiers that were following rules to shoot illegal Tibetan border crossers. Would you have shot the Tibetan refugees if you were the Chinese soldiers? Yes, because you are just following rules.

Vitaliy M wrote:Chief didn't you say you are not posting today and tomorrow due to some FAs you need to complete? Thank you for letting this deal wait till later, I had a better than expected time at work..now need to go climb.

I got done early on the first Pitch and partner had to bail to get some personal work done. 5 hours of good solid climbing and one bomber set of anchors drilled in. Back at it tomorrow and Friday.

My Secret Spot is a longass 20 minute drive down the road...sucks don't it.

The Chief wrote:Kevin...

Anyone that has been through any real Guiding Certification Process, fully understands the true principals of guiding. You assume total responsibility and care of that/those individuals from start to finish.

The principal I speak of above should be strictly applied anywhere on this planet, regardless of range or logistic reqs. That is the way my Boss operates and that is why I work with him.
Questions

Are you supposed to die with your client or die trying to rescue him/her no matter what the survival chances of the client are? Is that really the standard of care that is taught in guide school?

lefty wrote:Are you supposed to die with your client or die trying to rescue him/her no matter what the survival chances of the client are? Is that really the standard of care that is taught in guide school?

Not taught at any civ guide cert course that I know of. It is an unwritten code within the community and has been for a long ass time. Best example of late is the '96 disaster. Had it not been for certain guides going back up in potentially fatal conditions and making the attempt to assist/rescue their fellow clients and guides, more would have certainly perished.

There are many more examples and cases where guides put their asses out their in order to assist and rescue fellow clients and guides when in need.

We are taught this Code and it is instilled within us, repeatedly, in the military and has for well over a couple of hundred years.

For me, there is no second guessing nor questioning of this Code.

The Chief wrote:

lefty wrote:Are you supposed to die with your client or die trying to rescue him/her no matter what the survival chances of the client are? Is that really the standard of care that is taught in guide school?

Not taught at any civ guide cert course. It is an unwritten code within the community and has been for a long ass time. Best example of late is the '96 disaster. Had it not been for certain guides going back up in potentially fatal conditions and making the attempt to assist/rescue their fellow clients and guides, more would have certainly perished.

There are many more examples and cases where guides put their asses out their in order to assist and rescue fellow clients and guides when in need.

We are taught this Code and it is instilled within us, repeatedly, in the military and has for well over a couple of hundred years.

For me, there is no second guessing nor questioning of this Code.

That unwritten code is much easier to stick to in lower elevations. During the 1996 disaster this code led to Rob Hall's unfortunate demise when he decided to stay with client Doug Hansen even though Hansen was unconscious. Perhaps he'd still be with us if he had left when he could. Guide Andy Harris went back up to help Rob and Doug and he too disappeared. The decisions made by these climbers, as well as all the others who wanted to help their fellow climber and died trying, all made very tough personal choices under extreme conditions. I for one try not to pass judgement on their actions since I have never been in their position under those circumstances. If you want to die with your client Chief that will be your personal choice to make. You're obviously very passionate about your values and are a man of your word so I think we all know what you'll decide. I sure hope it doesn't happen because we'd all miss you a lot here on SP.

Brad Marshall wrote:That unwritten code is much easier to stick to in lower elevations. During the 1996 disaster this code led to Rob Hall's unfortunate demise when he decided to stay with client Doug Hansen even though Hansen was unconscious. Perhaps he'd still be with us if he had left when he could. Guide Andy Harris went back up to help Rob and Doug and he too disappeared. The decisions made by these climbers, as well as all the others who wanted to help their fellow climber and died trying, all made very tough personal choices under extreme conditions. I for one try not to pass judgement on their actions since I have never been in their position under those circumstances. If you want to die with your client Chief that will be your personal choice to make. You're obviously very passionate about your values and are a man of your word so I think we all know what you'll decide. I sure hope it doesn't happen because we'd all miss you a lot here on SP.

You forgot one major player in all this. Had it not been for Boukreev ascending numerous times into the shit of shit...

That is the Code I speak of.

The Chief wrote:You forgot one major player in all this. Had it not been for Boukreev ascending numerous times into the shit of shit...

That is the Code I speak of.

From the little I know about the 96 tragedy, Boukreev is probably the main hero, and not the villain as depicted in Krakauer's book.

But Boukreev is precisely the kind of "guide" you have been bashing over the last 15 pages, I mean he saw his own role as "the one to be here in case" rather than a "guide" in a strict sense. At least not the one to remain 24/7 within 10-15 feet of his clients as you are advocating.

Don't forget that Boukreev reached the summit ahead of all his teammates, started his descent while some other clients were still ascending, and reached C4 ahead of everybody, leaving ALL other clients behind. A criminal attitude in your eyes. But then Boukreev was present to successfully rescue and save the life of several climbers when the need arose. Once nothing more could be done, he did not let himself die on the mountain next to his dead companions. He went down, and faced the critics of people like you.

I, for my side, don't criticise him. I rather honour his memory.

Have a good climb,
Bruno

PS. Another acronym question: what does actually FA mean, to which you always refer? Follow my Advice?

Bruno_Tibet wrote:From the little I know about the 96 tragedy, Boukreev is probably the main hero, and not the villain as depicted in Krakauer's book.

But Boukreev is precisely the kind of "guide" you have been bashing over the last 15 pages, I mean he saw his own role as "the one to be here in case" rather than a "guide" in a strict sense. At least not the one to remain 24/7 within 10-15 feet of his clients as you are advocating.

Don't forget that Boukreev reached the summit ahead of all his teammates, started his descent while some other clients were still ascending, and reached C4 ahead of everybody, leaving ALL other clients behind. A criminal attitude in your eyes. But then Boukreev was present to successfully rescue and save the life of several climbers when the need arose. Once nothing more could be done, he did not let himself die on the mountain next to his dead companions. He went down, and faced the critics of people like you.

I, for my side, don't criticise him. I rather honour his memory.

Have a good climb,
Bruno

PS. Another acronym question: what does actually FA mean, to which you always refer? Follow my Advice?

Dude.. this post is one bigass contradiction.

First you say I bashed Boukreev and then you claim he is the epitome of what I claim as what a guide should be.

I never bashed nor criticize Boukreev, not once. I applaud him as an example for the rest to follow. He put his ass on the line several times in the shitiest of conditions to save others. Exactly what all guides that have taken on the responsibility, should do without hesitation. Period!

First Ascent

I started playing this game back in '68 Vitalitym.