I agree with the general conclusions this thread has arrived at. Experienced climbers often will benefit from a rope with little else since, in many cases, using a rope under those circumstances is in large part psychological and they understand the limits of such a quickie belay if you will. An inexperienced climber tempted to use a rope under those circumstances may really need one, may be tempted to weight it when the belayer doesn't have a great stance or a bomber anchor, etc., etc. That could lead to a really bad result. I have a mental image of the descent after the first ascent of the Matterhorn...

alpine345 wrote:To address the OP's first question: Yes better climbers often forgo a rope on 4th class and 5.easy terrain for upward progress but less often for down. But it's not only the difficulty of the actual physical movement skills that is the limiting factor, but all the other issues that comprise the risk. Yeah, I know, I've seen guys in Tevas solo 5.10d up and down, but most people can't, and certainly not in the rain, at night, tired, with a pack, or hungry, etc, etc. "Bring a Rope" is shorthand for bring the tools and skills necessary to elevate the game to the next level if conditions dictate. A rope, harness, HMS biner, quicklink, and a hank(30') of runner is my minimum "bring a rope" kit; I often throw in my "small rack"(1.5 lbs) because it opens up a whole range of other possibilities. I contend that you need to have experience climbing at the mid to upper 5.x range before you have the judgement and skill to comfortably solo very much 5.easy terrain. A couple of moves of 5.7, then back to talus hopping is still 4th class.

Well said, thank you

Rock climbers often have a very different view of the average belay, than the person who is just trying to get to the top of a peak that has a 30' section of class 4 or class 5.x. Usually rock climbers are intentionally picking a hard route that needs belays on vertical terrain, nearly all the way; rarely can the belays take much advantage of friction, and often there is much agonizing over pulley effects and there are attempts to match the weights of the belayer and belayee. But the peakbagger, with a few small or isolated sections of hard route, typically has the the option of a belay over a lip, where the force balance is very different, and a body belay can take advantage of rope/sling friction. Canyoneers tend to understand the distinction very well.

Are you attempting to imply that a person's attitude towards a given physical situation changes the reality of that situation? As if a "rock climber" would forgo the more basic protection techniques that you advocate for short pitches in favor of engineering solutions for those same pitches? That "just" a 30' section of 5.x won't splatter you if you're just "trying to get to the top", so you don't need to use competent technique? That canyoneers somehow understand something (physics?) that "rock climbers" don't? The first sentence seems to confuse "rock climbers" versus "mountaineers". A "mountaineer's " goal is to get to the top, using any appropriate skill set(hiking, skiing, rock/ice climbing, etc). The route selection defines the rules of the game i.e. the skill set du jour. Your attitude is irrelevant except only whether you chose to accept the challenge, or not. Being a mountaineer, I can tell you that I use the most efficient techniques that I have to get to the top. But I'll tell you the first and last hip belay I caught a fall with, was 1972. If you ever catch one you'll never do it again, either. Just try it, you won't like it.

alpine345 wrote:As if a "rock climber" would forgo the more basic protection techniques that you advocate for short pitches in favor of engineering solutions for those same pitches?

In my experience, yes. How many times have you seen a bolt or bolted anchor next to perfectly good natural pro? Or watched a "climber" laboriously insert cams rather than sling a perfect horn? How many "climbers" would know how to do a Dulfersitz rappel if they lost or broke their harnesses, or rappel with 2 biners rather than an ATC? Learning with lots of gear (or sport bolts) encourages ignorance of more basic protection techniques.

alpine345 wrote: A "mountaineer's " goal is to get to the top, using any appropriate skill set(hiking, skiing, rock/ice climbing, etc). The route selection defines the rules of the game i.e. the skill set du jour. Your attitude is irrelevant except only whether you chose to accept the challenge, or not...... I can tell you that I use the most efficient techniques that I have to get to the top. But I'll tell you the first and last hip belay I caught a fall with, was 1972. If you ever catch one you'll never do it again, either. Just try it, you won't like it.

Excellent post!

Something that I see occurring out there in today's young "mountaineers" thought processes, the word "Dynamic" has been removed from their thinking. I see far too many coming to this game with a "Static" mindset. Anyone that has been at this game for any length of time, will understand my point.

Hip Belay: I say don't try it. It ain't fun at all. I experienced my first and last ACTUAL "Hip Belay" in the late Spring of the same year as you indicate. I too will never allow myself to be put in that situ again, especially with any client/s. Thus the preorg'd *"Tool Kit" always comes along.

Dulfersitz rappel

Exercise this technique just once on an overhanging full free fall rap and I guarantee you will never do it again. That is if you are still alive and have retained your nutsack.


* Handful (8-10 depending on adventure) of leaver stoppers of various sizes/slings/biners/med sized quiklinks(5) = 4.6lbs of "Save my Ass" prevention and good for a min of 600' full on raps with doubles.

The Chief wrote:

Dulfersitz rappel

Exercise this technique just once on an overhanging full free fall rap and I guarantee you will never do it again. That is if you are still alive and have retained your nutsack.

Bullhockey. You should hire a guide to teach you the proper technique, The Chief. The dulfersitz is a basic skill every mountaineer should be familiar with, along with the knowledge of how to tie a bowline on a coil.

TheGeneral wrote:Bullhockey. You should hire a guide to teach you the proper technique, The Chief. The dulfersitz is a basic skill every mountaineer should be familiar with, along with the knowledge of how to tie a bowline on a coil.

Obviously, you talk with ZERO experience thus the "Static" mentality I posted.

Like I said, employ the "dulfersitz" once on a free fall 200' rap, and you will NEVER do it again. That is if your nuts are still attached to your crotch... it is called friction.

That is one primary reason the tied rope "Sit Harness" and "Biner Break" evolved at Seneca Rocks in the early 40's via the Army's Mountain Division.



PS: General, you just answered my enduring question as to who the individual was I witnessed some seven years ago that insisted they could start the Camp Fire by rubbing two sticks together. Hours after we enjoyed our bonfire and were turning in, he was still at it, rubbing them two sticks and still, no fire.


Nuff said.

alpine345 wrote:Are you attempting to imply that a person's attitude towards a given physical situation changes the reality of that situation? As if a "rock climber" would forgo the more basic protection techniques that you advocate for short pitches in favor of engineering solutions for those same pitches? That "just" a 30' section of 5.x won't splatter you if you're just "trying to get to the top", so you don't need to use competent technique? That canyoneers somehow understand something (physics?) that "rock climbers" don't?

Nope, not at all. Go back and read it more carefully, and I'll quiz you for comprehension later.

The first sentence seems to confuse "rock climbers" versus "mountaineers". A "mountaineer's " goal is to get to the top, using any appropriate skill set(hiking, skiing, rock/ice climbing, etc). The route selection defines the rules of the game i.e. the skill set du jour. Your attitude is irrelevant except only whether you chose to accept the challenge, or not. Being a mountaineer, I can tell you that I use the most efficient techniques that I have to get to the top. But I'll tell you the first and last hip belay I caught a fall with, was 1972. If you ever catch one you'll never do it again, either. Just try it, you won't like it.

Did I mention hip belay? No?

EDIT: helpful schematic of last use of body belay, 5 days ago:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkJnGIAZMkI[/youtube]

Sorry, I thought the name of this thread was 'Get a Rope' ... my apologies.

This post is getting (got) a bit crazy.

There is a huge difference between mountaineering and rock climbing, we all know that. If you are enjoying mountaineering and scrambling in the mountains, some of the the reasons for having a rope with you might be:

1. You are stronger/strongest person in the party and just because you can climb or downclimb something, others might not.

2. Even If you are climbing with your long time partner and you know his/hers skills, but the route is a long exposed ridge, and getting stuck could mean a "BIVI", you better bring rope, harnesses, a few tied slings and 3-4 stoppers.

3. If you go alone, and you are super comfy on easy 5th class terrain, you can leave the rope at home.

4. Any doubts (at all!!) about a route, the complete set up with rope, harness, 3-4 slings and 3-4 stoppers could save your life, it weights very little and will not slow you or anyone else down.

5. Whoever posted about knowing "dulfersitz" was asbsolutely RIGHT. If you want to be scrambling in the mountains, you need to know how to rap easier terrain with just a rope, if you have to. It is as imperative to know this as it is to know how to tie all your knots, how to safely scramble up 4/5th class terrain, how to read the route etc. it is a part of having a mountain sense and complete mountain skils.

MoapaPk: how do you define "body belay", if not by generating friction via wrapping the rope around your self somewhere?(AKA hip belay) And what is the little red guy holding on to? Just his hands grabbing the rope? I don't think so, or I hope not. His friction options are: hip belay, tube device, munter hitch, or auto block/reverso type. I've done the stance belay that you've diagrammed with the lip of rock many times and that's usually the first thing I look for when selecting a belay stance. It contributes a variable, unknown amount of friction via rope drag, but I contend that it won't supply 100% of the required arresting force. There just has to be something else in the system. And who belayed the little red guy? What kind of belay/protection did they use? Or, did he just solo? That's fine, I just want to know the rules of the debate and get some assumptions and pre-judgments exposed...If you want to proceed, I think we should go PM to un-clutter this thread

seano: Are you equating "rock climber" to "gym climber" or even "sport climber"? By that definition, I agree that there are lots of people out there without all the tools they need to succeed and be efficient in the mountaineering environment. Sharing and spreading information is one purpose of forums like this .

alpine345 wrote:I think we should go PM to un-clutter this thread

People can take the clutter.

alpine345 wrote:Sharing and spreading information is one purpose of forums like this .

And that is why.

BTW Re the hip belay, yet another (you might say archaic), but essential thing to know if you want to scramble in the mountains.
I hope you never have to use it, ever, but if you are ever in the kind of situation that requires it, well you get my point.

PS. Miguel Carmona took a 45 footer off the infamous Green Arch on Tahquitz Rock in 1980 trying a fairly early free ascent of the arch. Miguel's belayer (that would be me) used the hip belay to arrest his fall without any problems. He was tought how to use the hip belay!! Of course he uses belay device now and have done so for years, but...read the above.

Edit. Spelling (might need more than one version).

Kinda wish I knew what you guys were talking about, but interesting none the less. It would appear theres a lot of grey area in climbing methods/precautions.