I've been browsing through suggested gear for Alaska high altitude expeditions, and the amount of stuff recommended amazes me. Somebody recommended bringing 5 pants! Is it really THAT bad up there? I climbed at -45 F, but never needed more than a base layer and a hard shell...

artirm wrote: I climbed at -45 F, but never needed more than a base layer and a hard shell...

um...wow....ur tough.

I really depends on a lot of factors. Which month you go can greatly influence the temperatures you will experience and some years are colder than others. The suggested gear lists you may see on guiding companies Web sites are conservative. Also, you are starting on the glacier at 7k which can be very hot when the sun is out so you need to dress for very warm temperatures as well as temperatures as low as -30 F at 17k. Also personal factors like do you tend to be warm, are you well hydrated, have you had frostbite in the past influence your clothing system.

I went late May - mid June in 2005, which happened to be a particularly cold year. I wore 4 pants and it was not too much at night at 17k and on the summit push. I had mid weight long underwear, 200 wt power stretch tights, three layer hard shell pants, and synthetic insulated zip off pants. On top I had a midweight zip tee, a 200 wt power stretch zip tee, a primaloft sweater, a light weight shell, and a warm, hooded primaloft belay parka. While I would tweak my system a bit if I ever go back, I wouldn't take much less.

It also depends how much support you have and if you go on a commercial trip or not. If you climb Denali via technical route in alpine style with one or two partners, the above gear selection would be a madness. Usualy, if you cannot carry it in you pack, it is not needed. My three trips (W.Butt. complete NW Butt to N.Peak and a failed attempt on a new eastern route, long since climbed) included capilene top/bottom underwear, heavy underwear top and bottom, heavy (300) pile pants and top, goretex bibs and parka. No down parka or pants. Two sets of gloves/mittens. Pack was about 55-60 pounds starting at the glacier. No extras of any kind.
Or, as someone said long time ago, gather everything you would want to take on an expedition. Discard everything you could possibly do without. Take half of the rest with you. You'll be heavy enough as it is.

When I was initially buying gear, or rather expanding what I had, I found it helpful to look at the gear list for courses and guided trips for terrian similar or the same as the area I was buying gear for. This works very well for personal gear but not so much for group gear. These lists are widely available on so many commercial websites. For something more comprehensive, where Fletch is headed will be an excellent resource. Perhaps soon he will be the page owner and it will be the best possible!

This past May I brought along the following for the lower body:
1 pair mid weight merino wool bottoms
1 pair exped weight merino wool bottoms
1 pair REI Acme scholler pant
1 pair First Ascent Igniter Down pant

I wore the mid-weight and the Acmes 95% of the time at temps around -20 to -35*. Summit day was the Exped weight with the Acme. I never once wore the puffy pants.

Three weeks after my trip my buddy wore everything he had and was still cld. I had good weather he did not!

Vitaliy M wrote:Would primaloft pants work as well?
My understanding is that one would need these to have a full length zipper for a quick way to get them on or off, yes?

Do the primaloft pants have to go underneath your shell?
IMO, its preferable to be able to wear your insulation layer as an outer layer, with full side zips. Of course there's the not-having-to-take-off-your-boots thing, but you'd also be able to put them on over your softshells (or whatever you wear as your main outer layer), and take them off quickly again. I used the Patagonia Micropuffs, and only wore them twice, while hanging out at camp both times (we had good weather and didn't go higher than 17.2k though, sick partner ). Perhaps I'll wear them twice more next year

For comparison I brought the following for my lower body and thought it worked well -

1 lightweight baselayer - wore the first 5 days, cached at 11k
1 midweight baselayer
1 heavy weight baselayer
softshells
hardshells/windpants (never used once)
light insulation layer (the micropuffs)

Fletch wrote:Art - excellent post. Over the next few weeks, I'm going to be updating the Denali page and one thing I wanted to touch upon is gear. Especially for the folks who want to climb it without a guide. For background, I pm'd and emailed the current author and got no response, so finally the elves let me on as a co-author. My suspicion was that the current author hadn't climbed it (the elves agreed with me) and that's definitely a page that needs first hand knowledge (and I'm no expert really, but I've at least been there twice and to the top once). So long story short, That's something I want to permanently put in the page.

To answer your question, for pants, I would carry (1) two pairs of long underwear (any color - for tops, though you will want white) (2) Patagonia guide pants or similar. That's it really. Additionally, consider some sort of wind pant and a down pant. So that's four layers, but I never wore more than three at any given point (including a cold ass summit day). I found the wind pants useful for 14 - 17 and spots near windy corner. Hiking the ridge from the top of the fixed lines can get chilly if the wind comes up. Other than that, I used my down pants on summit day (and actually shed them on the way down). So, to sum up, you will probably need four layers, three of which you will wear in combination at any given point.

Now for tops, I would go the five layers...

Hi Fletch, I've been there a few times and, like you, I'm certainly not an expert but I do have a gear list I could send you if you're interested in some additional material to compare when updating the Denali page. If you're interested send me your email address.

Fletch wrote: ... the temp on Denali is not the issue, it's the wind.

FortMental wrote:How did you know it was -45 F?

Funny...

Normally I'd agree about the wind, but I must say that being up and about at 1am at the 14K camp (preparing to summit by bypassing camping at 17k) in mid-May was pretty much equal to the coldest I've ever been - it was just ridiculous. Several hours later we were forced down from just above the ropes by bad weather coming in and upon getting back to camp the rangers said they had measured it at -45 (or -40-something, can't remember) and it was even colder up at 16K. So ambient cold can be a real problem there, the wind just makes it worse. Six months after that I skiied to the South Pole and it never got that cold. In 2004 I slept on the summit of Vinson in Antarctica and we measured it with data collectors at -46C - it was not as brutal as -40something in the shade at Denali 14K.

You need to factor in that the altitude will slow you down, so you won't generate the same amount of heat you do lower down, so overheating is not as big a problem. Summit day on Denali I only had three layers on my legs but maybe five on my upper body - baselayer, fleece, synth jacket, shell and big down jacket. I was not hot. I did notice though that coming down the mountain on the first day of June it was a noticeably warmer place than when we'd arrived in early May.

D

I went with Alpine Ascents,Int.l a couple years ago. I was sort of taken aback by their Denali gear list. Luckily I already had just about everything and didn't need to go out and buy more. With that said, on my trip, with the weather we had and based on my comfort level, I was glad I took everything they recommended. I used everything on the list and there was not one thing that I either never used or needed. Granted, I paid very close attention to my particular "cold triggers" and I was never cold. With all the other climbers on the mountain, I suppose if you forgot something you could probably scrounge it up, especially at 14K but I wouldn't go with that attitude necessarily.

I'd completely agree with Fletch on this. In terms of pants, I brought 4 pairs. A mid-weight 'technical' fleece (REI), a heavy fleece (Marmot) and an outer pair of Arc'teryx Beta AR. I also had a pair of the Mountain Hardwear 'Absolute Zero' for summit day and for just lounging around in.
Both underlayers and the Arc'teryx did me perfectly fine.
A good buddy who wore the Absolute Zero Down Suit was near sweating in it on summit day. I sold mine (down suit) 2 weeks prior to departure and got seperate pieces. This turned out to be a superb idea as we had unusually warm temperatures (-5F on summit) and very low winds.

In fact, the Alti-Mitts I brought turned out to be too warm even. I resorted to my 8-year old, duct-taped Mountain Hardwear GLOVES!
Although I'd still bring my Alti-Mitts, 8.000m or Absolute Mitts. It's the waiting around (acclimating, waiting en route) that will freeze you!

Keep in mind, like the others said, Denali may be a COLD mountain but it's the winds that'll get ya.
DON'T SKIMP on the top layers. As with Fletch, We also got stuck on the lines coming down. We had good weather even though 14K camp was socked in with clouds.

I'm heading back next May via The West Rib and Kahiltna Dome.

In prep, I did what mrchad9 mentioned. I perused guiding sites and looked at their gear lists, read their pages and advice and read 4 seperate books on the mountain. I then spat it all back out in a massive 8 page document, more or less, curtailed for myself and my mates. By the time we left for Alaska, I had everything I needed to know memorized.
Just don't underestimate Denali because some of us here had atypical experiences.
The mountain is still cold as shit, windy and cravassed.

artirm wrote:I climbed at -45 F, but never needed more than a base layer and a hard shell...

Did you sleep at -45 for several days? How much gear one needs depends on how lucky you are with the weather. Some people get lucky and don't use half of the stuff they bring. But if you are not, and not prepared, you will suffer. I ended up spending total of 7 nights at 14k and 6 nights at 17k in May, and you bet I was glad to have every single piece of clothing I brought. For the bottom, I wore OR fleece overall with Arcteryx Goretex bib all the time. When in camp, I put on Integral Designs' synthetic insulated pants over the bib. And at 17k camp, a fleece pants underneath the overall.

I just want to say thanks for this discussion - I'm in the process of buying gear for an expedition next may (first time on the mtn) and this is all very helpful information! Thanks guys.

The guided group gear lists really aren't that far off...maybe quantities of each are a bit high, but the layering they employ is dead on. I def. used theirs as a good starting point for my own unguided list.

I used the following for a successful early-season summit this year:

Under Armor Non-cotton underwear(2)
Patagonia mid-weight thermal bottom(2)
Mountain Hardwear PowerStretch fleece bottom(1)
Mountain Hardwear Compressor insulated pants(1)
Lowe Alpine Guide Triplepoint Bib Pants(1)
liner socks (3)
Smartwool expedition weight socks(3)
Chemical Toe Warmers for Emergency and Summit Day(2 pair)
Fleece booties

I found myself hanging out alot in my Compressor pants over long underwear at 14k and 17k, and bibs/long underwear 11k and down, this for a trip starting mid-May.

Also, glad I had the chemical warmers on hand/toe for summit day.

PS. Can also provide personal, team, and food lists that worked for me from this year if you like.

Cheers,
Andy

FortMental wrote:Don't forget food. High fat foods keep the furnace burning. Bring booze too and learn how to use it... it dilates blood vessels in your extremities, warming them up. Listen to the old masters, not the gear whores.

One asprin and one garlic pill a day will thin the blood and make the platelets less 'sticky' thus improving circulation to the extremities. Doesn't help kill the time waiting out storms like booze will though.