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Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:39 pm

The Chief wrote:
why did TH write a letter to that magazine in which he said he did the lead of that 'hair raiser' 1st pitch and did not give consent to any added bolts


Please cite the actual letter that he specifically states "he led that hair raiser 1st pitch"....

You will not find one. The HRB Bolt War issue has put VC on the "Do not ever ask me about this G-Damn route again!!!" regret mark.


Also, it is very obvious that have NEVER been on nor ever led a Tom Higgins OR Vern Clevenger slab route. Again, had you ever done so, we would not be having this discussion. Those that have, know the reality of it all........


http://legacy.climbing.com/print/letters/letters239/
also see
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/hair-r ... /105881551

Russ Walling post:

This does not sound like Ok and aware to me:

From a SuperTopo Post:

Hair Raiser bolt removal - revisited

In response to posts on bolt removal on Hair Raiser, a few thoughts from the one who first led and protected the pitch in, I think, 1975:

My letter in the June, 2005 issue of Climbing ("A Woolly Mammoth Pleads") states, "I respectfully request climbers not alter a route where I'm party to the first ascent. Thank you." I also asked, "If a route has changed (missing bolt, significant feature gone), please contact me before adding bolts." My letter was intended as a request and gentle persuasion. I said, " ... a first ascent is not only a topo of features and moves, but an achievement to be appreciated with fixed protection left as originally done." I hoped to head off further "fixes" of my routes and of "traditional" routes generally, as they seem to be gaining in popularity.

I did not ask for the added bolts on Hair Raiser to be removed. My experience with removing bolts suggests it is counterproductive. Long ago, when I removed the bolts from Hand Jive in Tuolumne because they were placed on rappel (at the time, quite an affront to accepted climbing practice), no one was persuaded by my actions; the rock was scarred; the bolts were quickly replaced; and bolt hangers on a route of mine (the Vision) probably were flattened in retribution (I can't be sure - no one fessed up). It seems bolting and erasing wars do no good. Debate, discussion, posts and letters are the better means for trying to keep the long held agreement among climbers not to alter original protection. (For a fuller discussion, see "Rock Climbs of Tuolumne Meadows," Reid and Falkenstein, Chockstone Press, 1983).

Some posts on this subject speculate about the opinion of my partner on the route, Vern Clevenger, on the need for additional bolts after the first ascent. At the moment, I don't know Vern's opinion. However, I believe adding bolts to an existing route should not be done lightly. Every effort should be made to consult with all those responsible for the climb. I have had partners agree and disagree with my bolt placements on first ascents, and visa versa. I have done (and turned back) from climbs where I felt more, less or differently placed bolts would be good. My opinions or those of partners in such cases did not lead to changing bolts, nor should they.

When I first led the Hair Raiser first pitch, I protected some of it with thin slings snugged around chicken heads. Slinging is essential to making many climbs reasonable to lead. One example is Fantasia at Lover's Leap. I hope no one has decided to add a bolt to this climb because they can't or won't sling a critical knob. There are other such examples.

The tricky move at the beginning of Hair Raiser could lead to injury, but probably not death. Slinging makes the climb an "R," not "X." Still, one should feel comfortable leading a good way out on 5.8 before doing the climb. There are many similar "R" climbs where protection skills are important. I hope the trend is not to bolt them all.

Thank you,

Tom Higgins


Please cite the actual letter that he specifically states "he led that hair raiser 1st pitch"....

When I first led the Hair Raiser first pitch,
Signed by TH. Shocker.


Than you replied to this (http://legacy.climbing.com/print/letters/letters239/) letter with your own post which was published. Basically telling him to get over the added bolts.

Tired of arguing. Hope you enjoy this thanksgiving, and have fun ;)
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:40 pm

"Down with the woolly mammoth
Tom Higgins, get over it! [Letters, June issue.] You, sir, do not own the route Hair Raiser Buttress. This is America. I am sick and tired of these “bolt wars” and [climbers believing that] their FA is sacred ground and is not to be touched by anyone. Be proud that you were the FAer and allow the legend of your abilities to remain true, as it so respectively has. Everyone knows that a Tom Higgins route is tough and spooky. (I will add, though, that I believe that Darryl Hansel’s work is far more sphincter-puckering than yours, even with the many added bolts that he never whined about.)
After 34 years of climbing all over this planet, I have finally come to realize that climbing is supposed to be fun. Climbing is a way of freedom to one’s soul and spirit. I ask that those “ego heads” who make routes so dangerous (why did you even place bolts in the first place if you were so damn good?) and call it “way old,” remain home in their rocking chairs to rethink the true value of the act and life of climbing.
I, for one, plead that we leave the conquering mentality out of the climbing world and remember that this whole thing we call climbing is to go out and enjoy the day, the company, the rock, and to simply find peace. Let’s leave the selfishness to the politicians and just go have fun!

— Rick Poedtke, Crowley Lake, California"


Well this beautiful piece does not talk about the history, when and why the bolts were added, or by whom. It simply states that people do not own their first ascent lines and they should get over their ego and deal with others retro bolting their lines. Fairly simple - "Tom Higgins, get over it! You, sir, do not own the route Hair Raiser Buttress. This is America. I am sick and tired of these “bolt wars” and [climbers believing that] their FA is sacred ground and is not to be touched by anyone."
"I have finally come to realize that climbing is supposed to be fun."

Could have told him about accidents, Vern asking to add bolts, or anything else, but you didn't. Your point was clear- put in as many bolts as you need to have fun on the rock. At least that's what it sounds like to anyone who reads it.

PS: According to Russ' post it was TH who led the pitch. "In response to posts on bolt removal on Hair Raiser, a few thoughts from the one who first led and protected the pitch."
I don't know who is right (you or him), but whatever the case is he was part of a FA team and should have been asked before new bolts went it- and he wasn't.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:11 am

His lack of memory about placements or numbers of bolts don't mean anything. A guy like him placed plenty of bolts, and I am sure can't remember all. Especially knowing that route was done in the 70s! You asking him about those bolts 20 years after he climbed that thing! It seems like you were trying to prevent injury in other climbers, which is a good thing. But to say "get over it" to a guy who did the FA and didn't give his consent to added bolts is not the way to do it. How would you feel if I went to that line you did in Granite Park and added a bolt to what you call an old school run out slab? Than after you confronted me about it I would tell you ''This is America! You do not own that route! I just wanted to have fun on it!'' Don't think it's the best approach...even if there were 5 deaths on that pitch.

Did you have fun this thanksgiving?
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:14 am

As I said before, if your ass can climb that pitch so can mine. It is probably like a 5.8 with some ok gear and you were just scared. Brutus does not give the route the R rating. Keep hiding behind that tough guy image midget.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:31 am

Hmmmm never heard of it, or care to drive there to go do some bullshit cragging. Maybe if I am EXTREMELY bored next spring/early summer. So we will go climbing together?
:)

Additions: Love the review of your route on MP page: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/lizard ... /107720785
"excellent, fun slab route that is well (maybe a bit over) bolted. this lends itself to an environment where one can just focus on the technical (skill) aspect of the climbing, without having to worry about runouts and the implications thereof. just pure friction with hands for balance. don't use any of the edges, there's a good chance they'll crumble."
Guy rates the pitch as 5.6 when you give it a 5.8 rating LOL
Good ol Chief, just wants it to be fun ;)
Last edited by Vitaliy M. on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:37 am

By the way, where in PC is the route with 1000ft of fixed rope up a crack climb? That sounds super fun.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:36 am

Well I guess every route in Sierra is bullshit cragging. At least the ones I do are much further than 5 minute (if that) walk from my vehicle. Out of those 3 Sierra routes (out of over 80+ Sierra peaks I have done in the last 3 years) I did not lead the crux only on one climb.
How about we day-hike Citadel's Edge of Time Arete next summer together? I can lead the crux for you if you make it to the base of that cragging bullshit route. Supposedly it's old school too. 32 mile round trip with a ton of elevation gain and 2000ft 5.10+. Just don't place any bolts on it and don't drown crossing the creek, I heard it could be difficult for vertically challenged. Might need to bring a whip so you can keep up.

If DR says JFMR might be in top five of routes on the east side I will have to try it next year when the pass opens.

213blc 5.8+ Weston's friend
Todd Townsend 5.8 your friend
Old Skool 5.8 PG13 you
Weston L 5.8 guy you brought there
they didn't want to hurt your feelings.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Rob » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:04 pm

Looks like more grade inflation at Pine Creek...

I'm suprised because The Chief has been very vocal in the past about how grades are becoming lighter due to people over rating them, but it appears that there is some discrepancy here. So now The Chief is pro reto-bolting old classics, and over rating slab routes?

Comments on John Fischer Memorial Route

"By Old Skool (AKA: Rick Poedtke)
Sep 23, 2012
rating: 5.10c/d

Oh what a great ride.
I definitely give it a solid 10d as the crux moves on P3 are just as sustained as the traverse moves over on Hall Pass on 3 Hour Arete.
Defintitely the PSOM Wall Classic for sure."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By Kris Solem
From: Monrovia, CA
Oct 18, 2012
rating: 5.10b

Did the first 5 pitches of this one day before yesterday. Yes to all the props above. Super fun well protected climbing. Also did 3 hour arete and silver streak. All great fun.

Now guys, about the ratings...

Hair Lip at Suicide is a consensus 10a. On The Road on Tahquitz is 10c, and a much harder lead than JFMR. If P3 of JFMR were in Idyllwild it would likely be graded 10a as well, maybe 10b but that's it. Sorry but yer not as Old Skool as you think if you are serious about 10d. Of course the difference in grade in no way reflects on the quality and beauty of the climb. But resisting grade inflation is an issue for me.

I'm not about stirring the pot, just tryin' to keep it real."

:roll: :wink: :oops: :twisted: :mrgreen:
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:32 pm

I have done The Citadel twice via both the NF and ETA routes over the past 26 years.


Let's day-hike it next summer. Together. I need a strong partner. It will be a great day. I am planning to take the summer off so if we get along we can do much more. As long as you keep your bolts to yourself Mr. Old Skool.

By the way, as I told you before- my knowledge of slab is super limited (per you I can't even make 5.7 face moves). Can you school me on why the slab routes get easier as they flake off? I always found slab to be harder when it is slick (after flakes are off).

PS: I have done much more than 3 routes, but don't really have the need to list everything I have done- it is never enough to impress the mighty Chief.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:05 pm

So we gonna do Citadel car to car next summer?
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:48 pm

that many of today's moderate Cali climbers that can complete modern day .10's, would most certainly be flailing their asses off on many of the back east old skool .9's. And even some .8's.


Yea and some of these modern day wankers can solo 3 big walls in a day now wooooooooo people were so much better back in your day.
At least it is nice to know that you are one of these modern day wankers now and go by these soft ratings on your climbs, so us modern day gumbies don't break our necks attempting them.

I have to protect Rick regarding the 'overprotected' slab climb put up by him- Chief is 4'2 tall. What seems like something overprotected to a regular sized human is a big runout to this munchkin.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Stinger wrote:Been avidly lurking for over three years now. Just registered to state my frustration. This VitaliyM guy needs to seriously get a life and go away. He adds nothing productive to the content of most general forum threads other than his continued immature trolling injections of complete disrupting demeaning garbage. Hope that the Summit Post administrators take note. This of course is just a lurking observation and most likely means nothing. But hopefully it may.

Now back to my lurking mode.


Thank you Mr. Member Since Nov 23, 2012. Can't wait to see some of your contributions to the site in near future! :lol:
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby AlexRts » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:26 pm

Stinger wrote:his continued immature trolling

Um, that has been your only presence here.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby toxo » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:44 pm

Stinger wrote:Been avidly lurking for over three years now. Just registered to state my frustration. This VitaliyM guy needs to seriously get a life and go away. He adds nothing productive to the content of most general forum threads other than his continued immature trolling injections of complete disrupting demeaning garbage. Hope that the Summit Post administrators take note. This of course is just a lurking observation and most likely means nothing. But hopefully it may.

Now back to my lurking mode.


Obvious sock puppet is too fucking obvious.
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Re: Favorite under-appreciated routes of the season?

Postby mrchad9 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:42 pm

anita wrote:is that the Chief?
busy climbing, eh?

No Stinger is Daria Malin... she is hiding from Vitaliy. I presume it is the code name SAR teams have given her.
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