by HungarySagehen » Wed May 26, 2010 8:56 am
by PellucidWombat » Wed May 26, 2010 8:58 am
HungarySagehen wrote:For the record, I didn't say anything about censoring anyone. I suggested we restrain ourselves in order to foster better and more intelligent discussion.
by ridgeguy » Wed May 26, 2010 9:42 am
by Marmaduke » Wed May 26, 2010 9:54 am
ericwillhite wrote:Sorry Neophiteat48, I just noticed this forum topic, never even clicked on summitpost forums before. I wasn't going to write anything else but my silence on this forum is deafening. Well, I just spent a half an hour reading...trying to get an idea of what's going on here. I hope I don't get hammered for my spelling, that seemed worse than the nasty comments about me!
Let me say I did delete my original posts because I started feeling bad. Maybe they were too soon. I also didn't mean to infer some of the accusations I am now accused of saying such as I thought he was looking for the media attention. I thought it better if we just all deleted our posts and I just keep my mouth shut. I was unaware deleting a post could be used to vilify me. My intentions were to clean up the mess I started.
Here is what I said in the first post that caused such a stir. I said that after I read the first accident Mark had on Mt. Nebo, I made the comment out loud that "this guy is going to get himself or someone else killed". Well, a few days ago I'm reading another article where Mark needed Search and Rescue help and this time, his climbing partner was dead. Then I find out they chose (or were forced...it really doesn't matter) to sleep on the summit of Shasta in March. Are you kidding me! Only the most jack-ass plans would cause you to end up on the summit of Shasta overnight in a storm in winter. Something went wrong. I don't need an explanation. Is it not obvious. Even if it was your plan to do something extreme like that, don't then write an article saying climbing is as dangerous as walking down a city street. These are some of the things that lit me up and why I wrote a targeted attack toward Mark.
But, most of all would be his attitude. I quote him: "I’ve attempted to find fault with myself in hopes of learning for the future, but after much reflection and research, I have yet to find any ‘mistakes’ we made that could have been foreseen as such" This is bull! Their plans were not to camp up there....that's one massive mistake. Had he been down that night back at a lower camp, it is extremely unlikely his partner would have suffered HACE. This is fact. Their judgment and route decisions must come into question and it was a factor in the end result. I hope his thick skin can take it when that is what is reported in the next publication of Accidents in North American Mountaineering.
by PellucidWombat » Wed May 26, 2010 10:14 am
by PellucidWombat » Wed May 26, 2010 11:05 am
by SMG » Wed May 26, 2010 2:47 pm
by Buz Groshong » Wed May 26, 2010 2:49 pm
kevin trieu wrote:The Chief wrote:Scott wrote:Acclimatization always helps and is recommended, but going sea level to 10K isn't unusual and problems are pretty rare.
Wanna bet?
78 recorded AMS related helo evacs last season alone from the Whitney Region.
My Client died at 10.2K from the most rapid onset of HAPE on record, 3.7 hours from T/H to being pronounced after I gave him CPR for 1.2 hours on our way to descending back to the P/L.
My point, people these days are not taking the acclimatization protocol serious these days. There are many recorded AMS related SAR evolutions here alone in the Eastern Sierra that are never in the media.
Sea Level to 14+K in less than 24 hours.... c'mon!
This has been my standard schedule for climbing Sierra peaks for the past six years when I was working. Friday night I'd start driving, get to TH around midnight and get an early start Sat to about 10k', Sun summit and drive home.
Using the Whitney area for altitude related cases as sampling for all of the Sierra is flawed. You know that the Whitney area attracts majority of people that doesn't have too much experience in the mountains and altitude.
by The Chief » Wed May 26, 2010 3:19 pm
PellucidWombat wrote:If I don't go straight up from sea level, I almost always start my climbs by sleeping at ca. 10,000 ft, and found 12,000 ft to be my limit for a good night sleep for my first night up at altitude.
by mvs » Wed May 26, 2010 5:17 pm
by Augie Medina » Wed May 26, 2010 6:02 pm
SMG wrote:
But we need to do so with a sense of style and grace (and self preservation).
by kozman18 » Wed May 26, 2010 6:19 pm
by mrchad9 » Wed May 26, 2010 6:37 pm
FortMental wrote:If the point is survival, stay home.
If the point is to see what the fuck this world is about, get the hell outside. Try to stay reasonably safe and make sure to get in a good scare every now and then. That's why it's called an "adventure".
All you old farts with thousands of years of experience feel fit to pass judgement on someone who "didn't do it right" or simply got unlucky. Fuck you all. I won't defend (or criticize) PW's actions because I wasn't there and I don't know shit from shinola, despite the supposed facts, reported, inferred, suggested, rumored, and otherwise guessed at. At least he hung his ass out there with his buddy and could just as easily have come back with a cool story, instead of tragedy.
As if none of us have ever come back with a cool, quasi-epic story instead of being victim to tragic rock-fall, a fatal stumble, a heart attack, an embolism, a lightning strike, a bear attack, collapsing cornice, some psycho with an axe, a falling tree, carbon monoxide, even falling asleep at the wheel getting to a mountain. Alex Lowe got 400 stitches in face from an ice climbing accident. Did anyone call him an asshole? Conrad Anker didn't come back with his best friend after a ski trip; did any of you dickheads question his judgement?
If you can't accept the fact that sometimes "shit happens", then you live with the illusion that your epic genius and profound wilderness intelligence has put you in total and complete control of yourself, your partners, and the mountain. How mystified you'll be when "shit happens" to you!
ericwillhite wrote:I wrote a targeted attack toward Mark.
ericwillhite wrote:2) You chose a more difficult route with a more difficult decent.
by Dmitry Pruss » Wed May 26, 2010 6:44 pm
kozman18 wrote:I understand the viewpoints shared by SMG and the Chief, and I understand the need to properly acclimate. But with respect to HACE, if the incidence rate is around 1%, then aren’t we talking about trying to reduce this risk from 1% down to something between 0% and 1%?
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