ELCUERVO:
Thanks for the ENG 101 lesson. I will do my best as my mind bounces around in five different languages and I am still trying to overcome that deficiency. Too many drugs when I was younger and so many rocks, aircraft components, shrapnel etc., bouncing off and busting my head open.

KSOLEM: That is a big NEGATIVE on the ADDING. The proposal was to ESTABLISH on a centralalized line, Rappel Routes. If they included an established route, the FAer's WOULD be consulted first before even considering to do so.

It appears that too many folks are not reading the question as it lays. Rather, many are READING INTO the question.
What I was looking for was the following type of feedback:

A) When contemplating putting up a route, regardless of it's location(Wilderness or not) the crew needs to be considerate of local ethics and customs, as some have commented. Prior research and seeking feedback (locals and landowner's) before placing any FIXED PRO should be sought prior to establishing the route.
B) DO NOT place bolts near any natural feature that a clean active or passive piece of modern protection can be placed.
C) DO NOT place pitons in a feature that a clean active or passive piece of modern protection can be placed. Period! And if on a route that goes CLEAN, do not pound in pitons that will add to the destruction the rock. If you can't do it CLEAN, stay off the route till your abilities allow you to accomodate the current rating/standard.
D) Just because there are bolted routes in the adjacent area, that doesn't mean that the FA crew needs to go ballistic and rifle in bolts for the sake of doing so.
E) Be considerate of STYLE: Power drills or Hand Drills. They each have their place. Enough said.
F) Remember that the safety aspect of the route is paramount. If one is a stout 5.13 climber, consider the folks that will be on your route. Ego's aside, don't put one bolt in on a 180' pitch 5.9 slab climb that folks will get on and bust their ass and then bring attention to the area by the landowner's. Be considerate to the norms abilities. Make the route fun and safe.
G) Stances should be paramount and done to accomodate safe belays and rappels.
H) DO NOT add bolts to an existing route without first consulting the FA crew. If you can't safely climb the route at your current ability, stay off it until you can. DO NOT lower the routes standards to appease your ego!
If anyone would like a lesson on how to put up an aesthetic route, please look up these local gents, Patrick Paul, Barry Chambers, EC Joe, Ron Carson, Darrel Hensel, Alan Bartlett, Marty Lewis or Peter Croft(there are many more out there but these guys are some that I admire and respect).
Anyone have something to add...please!

OK. I'll agree with every point except item "f." I think this one is a slippery slope. What is safe for one is not safe for another and climbing by it's very nature is not safe. There is beauty to the bold line, even if it means it is not for everyone.

Back to the bit about "adding." Would you agree that an alpine route with a guaranteed and easy descent is less commiting and in a real sense easier than one that has only the natural features to use for descent?

RArdesch wrote:What gives the rafting. climbing companies that guide in the Kern River area the right to add bolts to established climbs to soften them up for their paying customers? After all there is really no law governing those crags. They climb up there, probably more than us, and what does it hurt to add another bolt to the third or fourth bolt on a climb to make a top-rope anchor?? I say chop em!!!!!!! But who says thats right?

Renee..I say chop em to. I will help you. NOTHING is WORSE than to come upon a climb you have been doing for like 25 years...and find a bunch of fresh 3/8 bolts ADDED to it. Or to see a bunch of TOP ROPE anchors added to blank faces so guides can have a little training aera for the paying clients. I have no problem with the very soft "FIRST ASCENTS" added up river, by the guides, on those 40 foot tall slabs cause they are FA's.


My personal ethec is not to mess with another man's climb...you either do it as is, or you walk past it.

Bolts are just a tool that we use so we can climb. Bolts have always been a touchey issue in the climbing world. I feel that Clean Climbing goes best with bolts in the nessary spots. You don't want to carry a hammer to test pins. That is why I don't get all up in arms when FIXED PINS get replaced with bolts cause fixed pins are sort of suspect in the first place. Not using pins is what has saved a lot of good cracks from becoming "hole climbs".
And to round out this discussion....I don't think that WILDERNESS has anything to do with anything about BOLTS....It's sort of like spray painting graffiti on rocks. Would you spray paint your name on rocks at Stoney cause it's not WILDERNESS? Or would you need the PARK SERVICE to tell you just where the WILDERNESS starts and stops? IMHO the "vertical world" is all WILDERNESS, even if you your belay is the bumper of your car.

And Rick...Keep posting. I like reading POSTS WITH CAPS..It shows some emotion. If you stick around this fine site you will be surprised at who will pop up here, not always on the "forums" but rather on the imformation spots of SP

Carry on...
GK

HOLY SHIT!!!! Now that is what I am talking about gentlemen. Dialogue that is respectful, logical, productive and very down to earth!! THANK YOU.

Now, I do agree that F) is relative, and opinions on both sides make equal sense as point H) covers the..."Don't screw with the pooche if you're shakee at the grade" philosophy.

As far as "ICE NINE" on Mendel, with the onset of the WI (Water Ice) & M (Mixed R&I) grading system, I believe that change to the old GRADE 5+ that Mike Cohen and Roy Bishop established back in 67', can be justifiably utilized in order to update an old rating with the modern grading system...concur?

And again, thank you for the considerate and logical dialogue! I was getting worried!

Rick: Could you please quit SHOUTING? You're hurting my ears.

As far as carrying a hammer, I routinely carry a hammer in the Sierra. When ice climbing, I use two Black Prophets in hammer mode. No adze.

As far as bolting is concerned... Hasn't this dead horse been beaten to the point that its bones have turned to dust??

Brutus

HMMM...Like Rene said, I have a bad habit of getting to the point and don't worry much about ego's!

Rick Poedtke wrote:As far as "ICE NINE" on Mendel, with the onset of the WI (Water Ice) & M (Mixed R&I) grading system, I believe that change to the old GRADE 5+ that Mike Cohen and Roy Bishop established back in 67', can be justifiably utilized in order to update an old rating with the modern grading system...concur?

One of my ice partners has apparently led Ice Nine three times and said the chockstone was rated 5.7. I forget what he said about the ice rating, but he usually leads WI4/4+. SP Parker's Eastern Sierra Ice guide says Mendel left is WI4/5.7 so I'm inclined to believe that. btw The guide also has an interesting topo.

Boy, did I miss alot or were things just carried away a bit? I stopped reading after.....well, I don't even know that....my head is still spinning!

BTW Mike...thanks! Semper Fi back at you!

Retirement date: Aug 29 2003

My wife is a jarhead too....serving in Iraq. 2 more years before she retires..Wooohooo!!!

I agree with that! How about: WI3+/M3 which would accomodate the constantly changing ice conditions and leave the 5.7 for the chockstone move that we all know exists on the "Ghost". When it is in and fat, it brings the grade up to WI4 (the angle increase to 80-90deg) and when sparse, an easy WI3(the angle decreases 60-80deg). So, like the old "+" and "-" variable, this would give it respectable modern accurate grade.
Comments?

Dave...sounds like a typical Recon comment as the Operators are turning over the Clean-Up Op over to them and are on their way to the bar for a squirt!!!!! HOOOOYAA!
And your "Skipper" most definitely looks like she will kick your ass when you are out of line,
Shipmate!

Speaking of recons....

So, your not interested in "reconning" the South Guard in Sequoia because you're afraid of a little poison oak. What kind of SEAL are you?

There is a difference between being "Crazy" and "Stupid". P-Oak and "Nuts" don't mix!
Why walk through a "Hot Zone" when you can Night Insert around it and come out (get Extracted) unscathed?
PS: Just took some fresh Pics of Morrison Jr. and Luarel this morning, I will email them to ya and see what ya think!

Morning Rick!

This is the 2nd time you roused me from a sound sleep! I enjoyed the abc's of bolting essay, and I agree, with the exception of (f) for the reasons already stated.

See, as I suspected,. you already knew all of this! Come on in out of the cold Rick! There are some good people in here, you've already traded blows with a few of them. You appear to have the kind of experience, including route info, that a lot of folks here could benefit from.

HOOOYAA! That is mighty nice of ya LOWERME. By the way, I am immune to the cold. Ask anyone that has played with me on ice. It's all in the mind! And the mind can be controlled. Push the body and the mind will follow, don't give it the option to revolt.

Well....lookie here....a kinder, gentler Rick already!

Humility!...AH!.........The Smell of it!