OK FOLKS...the FIRE has been lit, AGAIN!!!! To bolt or not to bolt (this includes any FIXED PRO...not slings)? That is the question! When, Where and Whom has the authority to determine the validity of bolting or fixing pins, and WHY??? The issue has been HOT since who knows when. But.... Below is a list of some of the many areas (in the U.S. & BC) that I have played on in the past thirty five years of enjoying this lifestyle we all call climbing, that in fact have "BOLTS" or "FIXED ANCHORS". They are located on WILDERNESS, PUBLIC or PRIVATE LANDS.

Cannon Mtn & Cathedral Ledge NH, Seneca & NRG WV, Stone Mtn, Linnvile Gorge, Looking Glass & Whitesides NC, Castleton, Fisher Twrs, River Road, Cane Crk, Arches & Zion NtlPk UT, The Hulk, Mt. Conness, Third Pillar, Ruby Wall, The Smoke Stack (or Rabbit Ears), Cardinal Pin, Whitney, Keeler and Whitney Portal, Hammer & Calaveras Domes, Needles & Power Dome, Castle Rock Spire, Castle Rock State Park CA, Liberty Bell, Index & Leavenworth WA and Squamish BC.

Who determines and authorized the right to place the BOLTS or FIXED PINS in these areas?

No one should be allowed to place or chop bolts or other fixed anchors until they learn to use capital letters properly and with restraint.

In alphabets with a case distinction, capitals are used for:

Capitalization,
Acronyms,
Better legibility, for example on signs and in labeling, and
Emphasis (in some languages).
Capital letters were sometimes used for typographical emphasis in text made on a typewriter. However, long spans of text in all uppercase are harder to read because of the absence of the ascenders and descenders found in lowercase letters, which can aid recognition. With the advent of modern computer editing technology and the Internet, emphasis is usually indicated by bolding or italicizing, similar to what has long been common practice in print. When acronyms require a string of uppercase letters, they are frequently reduced in size by a point or more to make them easier to read. (By contrast, the "small print" in legal documents is often capitalized to make it harder to read.) In electronic communications, it is often considered very poor "netiquette" to type in all capitals, because it can be harder to read and because it can be seen as tantamount to shouting.

Point: Emphasis in Old English! Poor etiquette in modern times, maybe, but none the less, valid and correct usage!

Now, back to the original premise of this discussion! And, can we please have logical and respectful inputs and not demeaning, sarcastical mute inputs that have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion...please. Thanks.

Rick Poedtke wrote:Who determines and authorized the right to place the BOLTS or FIXED PINS in these areas?

That would be me. I'm also in charge of making Wilderness policy as well as determining who gets to play there. Since you didn't know this, your rock climbing rights are being revoked indefinitely. Your outdoor activities are hereby restricted to boating on Lake Crowley and travel to and from the Big K in Bishop as needed for work/shopping. Oh and I guess you can boulder too.

Don't boulder as there are no BOLT's or PIN's or RIVET's to clip. Now, if I could put a 22cm Screw in or pound in a Snarg, then maybe I would give it a go. Till then... I will stay away fom the Peak Bagging Community and stick to the Vertical World.

FAer's a given. Who establishes the area ethics? i.e. Wall of the Early Morning Light vs. the Prow(after the fact)??? TrapRock, Conn. (Ken Daniels and the CHOPPING MACHINE ideology of the mid 90's)? etc.

What does that have to do with the discussion Craig? Walter Bonatti left a trail of many fixed pins on many of his ascents(added to original attempts)...maybe you need to go climb the SW Pillar of the Dru to see for yourself. Gaston Rebuffat would add pins to routes to make them safer for his clients. Fixed Pins have been added to many of the Eiger's routes... Chris Bonnington and Don Whillans, wow did they ever place and leave new fixed pro to many routes on the Blanc. That mentality was and is still prevalant throughout Europe! Do that here and you get...
WB and others are just other climbers and many wish to be left that way. That is one reason that Walter stopped climbing and went to the Congo for two years...he got screwed by his peers and the media for being a "Non-Conformist"!

HMC got it right. Some areas (like Joshua Tree) have specific rules about bolting, but they are generally aimed at first ascentionists or replacing existing bad bolts; Never adding bolts to existing routes no matter how "unsafe" or inconvenient one may feel they are.

Apologies for the newbie question, but why or why not include pins with bolts in this discussion ? Aren't pins removable ?

Now, how many "ALPINIST" today bring a hammer or have a hammer on their tool to remove a fixed pin that has been in a Sierra crack for more than a year. Fixed pins in my book are considered just as if not harder to remove than a bolt. Shear the eye of a pin that is over ten years old(and I have done it many times) and you got a permanent fixture in the rock.

What gives the rafting. climbing companies that guide in the Kern River area the right to add bolts to established climbs to soften them up for their paying customers? After all there is really no law governing those crags. They climb up there, probably more than us, and what does it hurt to add another bolt to the third or fourth bolt on a climb to make a top-rope anchor?? I say chop em!!!!!!! But who says thats right?

So do the Himi's, NZ Southern Alps...etc and while we are at it the GREAT TRANGO has so many added bolts in the past 7 years and that is WILDERNESS if I ever heard any! Far more Wilderness than the Sierra Nevada.

That's just the way it is don't cut it in my book!

Rick, if you really wamt to add bolts to climbs - just do it and shut the fuck up.

This message is coming to you from the Gunks - where it is illegal to add any bolts or pitons ( it's all private property ).

Rick Poedtke wrote:Now, how many "ALPINIST" today bring a hammer or have a hammer on their tool to remove a fixed pin that has been in a Sierra crack for more than a year. Fixed pins in my book are considered just as if not harder to remove than a bolt. Shear the eye of a pin that is over ten years old(and I have done it many times) and you got a permanent fixture in the rock.

Got it. Another thing that occurred to me right after I pressed the submit button was that pins cause permanent rock scarring. Hello, earth to rob ...