mvs.... I wish to thank you for putting up a choice topic.

We, as SP members, should not have our writings censored, in anyway. IMHO

The dude is just way off base.

You should feel like you are part of the "tribe" "community" whatever you want to call it.

If some people wish to show how shallow, ignorant, misinformed, racist and or stupid they really are through their posts I say let it happen.

We are all Grown ups, and having some "Big Brother" type lord over us and our writings is not necessary.

One of the main attractions of SP - to me- is the wide openness it has historically had, especially when you compare it to some of the heavily moderated sites.

Once a site gets moderated it looses its true identity and becomes an agenda driven, one dimensional place, much like political sites.

I really don't wish to loose what little freedom we do have.

GK

What "freedom" Guy?

Show me in the written SP rules where it states "Freedom" shall reign, so type and post away.... please show/ref me this "Freedom" you speak of.

Thanks.

PS: According to THIS, the word was given differently, a longass time ago. Maybe some should read the "RULES" before they join then post...

4. Editorial Control
SP staff maintains the right to perform edits on your submitted Content for the purpose of correcting factual errors, removing copyright violations, and changing or deleting any Content that is otherwise in violation of SP policies.

The SP website consists of "objects" (eg Mountains, Albums, Articles, Lists) contributed by members. Each "object" in SP has at least one "maintainer" - a person authorized to make edits to the object. You become the initial maintainer of objects you contribute. As maintainer, you are expected to ensure that the information provided for your object is useful, complete, accurate, and up-to-date.

You acknowledge that objects you contribute may be deleted or transferred to another maintainer in accordance with SP policies. You agree that in the event of a transfer, the new maintainer may modify material which you have contributed.

When you make contributions to an existing object, you are authorizing that object's maintainer (and future maintainers) to incorporate, modify, or reject your contribution as he or she sees fit.

You retain your copyright in your contributions, subject only to the editorial controls described here.





I learned the hard way that there aint no stinking "Freedom" here and if you do not follow the guidelines, the "Elves" will do as they feel is best for the site. It's their job to do so. And I respect them all for standing firm and doing their best to be consistent in their actions across the board in this regard.

I say either respect that/them in general, or eject yur ass outta here for not wanting to adapt nor willing to conform to the posted rules.

Rick.... wow, I interpret the rules, you just referenced, very differently.

SP, way back was very free and a lot more fun.

Now not much.

I feel that the Moderators are wrecking this site.

Heck can't I have my own opinion on the subject.

GK

C'mon Guy... get real.

"SP Policies" is what we in the Navy called the "Catch All" Article. In other words, it is up to the discretion of the Elves/Moderators to utilize it in order to maintain a level base of control on SP, IMO.

As I see it, this Thread aint no opinion. Rather, appears to be an insistence of action on your part.

I was banned over a dozen times for thinking that I was free to do as I wished.

I not once called for the dismissal of any Moderator after any of my banning's, regardless of their premise to do so.


I learned different the hard way and now do my best to follow the regs/rules.

AJ gave me some great personal general and very sound posting advise earlier this year before he departed, "If you feel that your post may be questionable/offensive, send it to the Elves first for evaluation prior to posting. It may save you some future grief."(Paraphrased)

I have done my best to follow this very sensible and good advise since then. It has indeed kept me out of trouble.

Does this mean I have caved in? Not one bit. It means that I learned to follow the rules that are posted and that I agreed to follow as my personal responsibility to do so, when I joined.

Just cuz I got a Ferrari, don't give me the right to go 175 in a 65 zone and get away with it.

Rick.... I am always real no fake stuff, I call things as I see them. If I am wrong I will admit it. This is how I live.

AJs advise is right on. I sometimes walk away from the computer and do something for a while, then I come back and re read what I wrote before pressing the "forget it" button. I think the Mods could at least do the same.

Maybe they could think a little bit before editing/moving stuff.

And to you, Rick I will say this, at one time you put up some of the most tasteless, hate filled stuff I have ever read. Some of the stuff you said to others made me sick and not proud to call myself a climber. But through it all, I knew that was not you- at all, just some internet persona you developed that always had something to say.

Peace and love to all.

mattski wrote:

Re: What have you given up for climbing?

social life/money/mental stability

this seems sad matt....are you content with this?

Guy, aren't you just full of good tidings and judgement tonight.

My dearest apologies for making you sick and not fulfilling your expectations of how a climber should behave. Guess I just aint a "real climber".

Seems I have read this somewhere else on this site in the past.... unfkingbelievble.

Done.

mattski wrote:

this seems sad matt....are you content with this?

not at the moment, i need a couple of days off climbing might go fishing

I hear ya brotha. Enjoy!

The Chief wrote:Guy, aren't you just full of good tidings and judgement tonight.

My dearest apologies for making you sick and not fulfilling your expectations of how a climber should behave. Guess I just aint a "real climber".

Seems I have read this somewhere else on this site in the past.... unfkingbelievble.

Done.

Please don't get me wrong Rick, you sir are a real climber.

So please go back and read just what I wrote.

I figgured you have a tough hide, and you can handle anything.

Guy...

This entire thread is one of individual opinions.

Myself, I have based my entire life, including my climbing, on what I believe is right, regardless of what you or anyone else on this planet may think. And I can handle far more than you or anyone else may think or expect me too, trust me.

There are many out there that detest me, my persona and my attitude etc. And then there are those that believe the opposite.

I care none the less of either in allowing them to affect my direction or path. And I ain't gonna change that mindset tonight.

There is only one dude I look into the eyes of each night in the mirror before I go to bed....

The way this question is posed is inherently flawed. To assume that one sacrifices implies that one has to "give up something of value, worth, and to accept this under unsalvageable terms and conditions".

The fact is, we choose climbing over things that we simply don't care about. Not caring about something implies low to nonexistent perceived worth. If we don't care about some things, we don't mind "sacrificing or giving them up" in favor of climbing, since the lack of the sacrificed entities doesn't affect us anyway.

This raises another interesting question: are enough of the needs specific to climbers satisfied to a suitable extent by virtue of participating in outdoor/climbing activities-since many other interests and needs start falling away or become vehicles for furthering our climbing goals--social needs, career, family, domestic, monetary, etc.

What needs then, does climbing satisfy? If we make a list of these "needs", we may find that other non-climbing individuals (especially drug addicts?) in our world will most likely produce a similar, perhaps identical list of "needs." Or perhaps the climbing produces more, and novel "needs", or climbing satisfies different, newfound needs? And by "needs", I am more referring to psychological rather than more tangible needs.

mattski wrote:thats pritty heavy daria true thow /Its like some thing out of a text book/

my brain is heavily trained by philosophical inquiry, which means I can decipher small, but important details in how we use language in argument and in communication with each other. And some people say philosophy is the most worthless major!

Daria wrote:The way this question is posed is inherently flawed. To assume that one sacrifices implies that one has to "give up something of value, worth, and to accept this under unsalvageable terms and conditions".

The fact is, we choose climbing over things that we simply don't care about. Not caring about something implies low to nonexistent perceived worth. If we don't care about some things, we don't mind "sacrificing or giving them up" in favor of climbing, since the lack of the sacrificed entities doesn't affect us anyway.

...

Good post! I can respond to the first part. I agree that my original statement was flawed. I'll go one better and say dishonest. The flaw came from a thoughtlessly employed dramatic convention, highlighting "sacrifice" when, in reality, I was tossing around for things to offer up as having been sacrificed. This resulted in the hilarious impression (for those who know me) that I pined for a management job and was crying bitter tears over all kinds of things.

What I meant to do was something like this:

#1 - wow, I devote a lot of physical and mental energy to climbing.
#2 - Look! I even moved from place to place to further such activity.
#3 - What if I never discovered climbing? Where would all those years worth of energy go?
#4 - How about you guys? Can you speculate on the alternate reality that might have developed for you?

I don't ask those questions with bitterness, only wonder. For example, before climbing I was a musician. I think my mom is still heartbroken that I didn't keep pursuing that. Maybe it's easier to see the alternate versions of yourself that might have developed in the eyes of other people.

mvs wrote:

Daria wrote:The way this question is posed is inherently flawed. To assume that one sacrifices implies that one has to "give up something of value, worth, and to accept this under unsalvageable terms and conditions".

The fact is, we choose climbing over things that we simply don't care about. Not caring about something implies low to nonexistent perceived worth. If we don't care about some things, we don't mind "sacrificing or giving them up" in favor of climbing, since the lack of the sacrificed entities doesn't affect us anyway.

...

Good post! I can respond to the first part. I agree that my original statement was flawed. I'll go one better and say dishonest. The flaw came from a thoughtlessly employed dramatic convention, highlighting "sacrifice" when, in reality, I was tossing around for things to offer up as having been sacrificed. This resulted in the hilarious impression (for those who know me) that I pined for a management job and was crying bitter tears over all kinds of things.

What I meant to do was something like this:

#1 - wow, I devote a lot of physical and mental energy to climbing.
#2 - Look! I even moved from place to place to further such activity.
#3 - What if I never discovered climbing? Where would all those years worth of energy go?
#4 - How about you guys? Can you speculate on the alternate reality that might have developed for you?

I don't ask those questions with bitterness, only wonder. For example, before climbing I was a musician. I think my mom is still heartbroken that I didn't keep pursuing that. Maybe it's easier to see the alternate versions of yourself that might have developed in the eyes of other people.

I´m glad you´ve improved on the "sacrifice" bit, Mike - I can relate in a more positive way to your train of thought. As for you being "dishonest", I can only write - don´t be so bloody dishonest about you being dishonest!
Now I´ll think about what it´s meant and done for me - climbing and mountains that is.
Servus

charles wrote:

mvs wrote:

Daria wrote:The way this question is posed is inherently flawed. To assume that one sacrifices implies that one has to "give up something of value, worth, and to accept this under unsalvageable terms and conditions".

The fact is, we choose climbing over things that we simply don't care about. Not caring about something implies low to nonexistent perceived worth. If we don't care about some things, we don't mind "sacrificing or giving them up" in favor of climbing, since the lack of the sacrificed entities doesn't affect us anyway.

...

Good post! I can respond to the first part. I agree that my original statement was flawed. I'll go one better and say dishonest. The flaw came from a thoughtlessly employed dramatic convention, highlighting "sacrifice" when, in reality, I was tossing around for things to offer up as having been sacrificed. This resulted in the hilarious impression (for those who know me) that I pined for a management job and was crying bitter tears over all kinds of things.

What I meant to do was something like this:

#1 - wow, I devote a lot of physical and mental energy to climbing.
#2 - Look! I even moved from place to place to further such activity.
#3 - What if I never discovered climbing? Where would all those years worth of energy go?
#4 - How about you guys? Can you speculate on the alternate reality that might have developed for you?

I don't ask those questions with bitterness, only wonder. For example, before climbing I was a musician. I think my mom is still heartbroken that I didn't keep pursuing that. Maybe it's easier to see the alternate versions of yourself that might have developed in the eyes of other people.

I´m glad you´ve improved on the "sacrifice" bit, Mike - I can relate in a more positive way to your train of thought. As for you being "dishonest", I can only write - don´t be so bloody dishonest about you being dishonest!
Now I´ll think about what it´s meant and done for me - climbing and mountains that is.
Servus

Do any of you really contemplate any of this while you are actually climbing?

Maybe everyone here needs to stop "philosophizing" this gig to shit and just go do it. Enjoy the moment for what it really is, not what one thinks it may be.

Being in the moment ("Now"), is allowing oneself to not think about anything. Rather, allowing all that is occurring, to do so, freely. All without any of ones perceptions to infect the real moment.

Climbing a prime example of a Zen moment. One dedicated to the Zen way knows that thinking and ones self imposed perceptions are not part of the process. They allow the moment to flow freely around them and within them. Absorbing what is real and not what one believes may be real.

Stop thinking so much boys and girls. You may just find that this climbing thing encompasses far more than asking if one is "giving up" anything to do so.

Rather, it becomes a part of ones life as are all the other entities that one chooses to partake in. It becomes part of ones learning process throughout their daily life.

Guy:

I figured you have a tough hide, and you can handle anything.

That is a pretty oxymoron statement considering your prior post....

And to you, Rick I will say this, at one time you put up some of the most tasteless, hate filled stuff I have ever read. Some of the stuff you said to others made me sick and not proud to call myself a climber.

As I see that transaction, you Guy, can dish it out, expect me to suck it up, yet you can't take it.... hmmm.

I have been taught through the ages that no one can offend me unless I allow them to. Think about it.