Thanks for the link. I very much respect what bob had to say and recommend that everyone slightly interested in this debate give it a thorough read.

I got a couple of (EDIT: I mean three) things to say:

#1 - Jethro Tull is pretty amazing. "North Sea Oil" is a great album. I learned about him from an Indian software engineer, who said that Tull commanded huge audiences in Bangalore even as their star had waned in the west.

#1 - despite being a civilian I get the Chief's post that if you give someone a leadership position you need to let them do their job.

#3 - Guyzo you seem to expect perfection from everybody involved here. You castigate Tazz for ever losing her cool, despite trying to function in what became a "war zone." You castigate Bob for doing his job which is more mundane than controversial (or should be). I understand your point about the organic development of a thread and how left untouched it's maybe a work of art and all that kind of stuff...I'm kind of a purist myself. But moderators exist for a reason, and have to balance among competing values. But "thread integrity" is only one of several competing values moderators have to balance. It's impossible to satisfy everybody.

We can't let this site lose any more moderators! The situations they've been through are "battle experience" that end up making our lives easier. I'll sacrifice some "organic thread growth" for a bit of gardening.

Preface : I haven't read all the posts here
Question : why some people here don't want to restrict their action in posting info and photos about mountains, routes and areas they know ?
Maybe someone is going to earn money or health by arguing ?

Somehow I´m glad Guy has put this up for discussion for I have to admit I´ve been somewhat confused lately by some moderation, whether it be thread cutting or rules of behaviour and engagement that, to me, seem ambiguous.

But I have another reason to welcome this thread. It quite well illustrates mountaineering. Climbers (name used for simplicity but it covers all names associated with our sport) have it seems split personalities. Who on the one side is the anarchistic adventurer who actively shuns rules and regulations or even fights against them - the bolt war for example. And on the other,the maker of codes, ethics and rules, often unwritten, to govern his/her´s and others actions on the hill, climbing bans due to bird nesting for example. I think this dichotomy applies particularly to the Anglo Saxon side of the sport - the Germans, for example and in my experience, tend to have less of a problem with making and accepting rules - although they have also had their bolt wars. This mixture of anarchist and bureaucrat rule follower makes for, at times, uneasy bed fellows, especially because they are often housed within the same climbing harness.

I think someone like Guy, who´s climbing prowess I respect, is perfectly entitled to vent his frustration about how he sees the picture being abused, as others are to defend it.

I will accept moderation of this post only as far as spelling and ONLY using word check of British English please!

Oh NO, please don't mention what language to use on SP, which I admit is an international site. When you do, THIS is what happens :

CSUMarmot wrote:

lcarreau wrote:Jethro Tull ROCKS!
YESYESYES!!!!
You are the first person to share my love of 'Tull!

Count me in too. Why don't we have Tull on Xim's Authentically Good Scottodouche Music Thread?

On the main point: our moderators handle an impossible task better than any of their critics would. I'd prefer fewer interventions as opposed to more, but that's a matter of taste; as others have noted, some want more. If most of our whiners were made moderators, disaster would result.

On the thread that sparked guyzo's complaint: I can understand wanting to keep the "serious" half of the thread public (out of PnP) while putting the digressions in PnP. These things *might* shape newcomers' and outsiders' view of the site. But I suspect few of them search forums for climbing-related philosophy. Most people just start a new thread instead.

I'm fine with wandering threads being moved to PnP in their entirety. Any member interested in continuing the conversation can hold their nose and go to PnP if it's such an important topic for them.

In the end, does all this shit really, really matter?

Honestly, if anyone here spends their day actually thinking about any of this, they need some professional help IMO.

That is coming from someone that goes weekly for professional help for things that really matter.

You love Bob, just admit it and get on with life -

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcrPF6vD_Y4[/youtube]

charles wrote: I will accept moderation of this post only as far as spelling...

Now that we are speaking about spelling, could someone please correct the spelling of the name of the subject of this discussion in the title of the thread!

Guyzo didn't castigate Tazz, that was another person in this thread. Tazz had that response coming to a degree, not everyone forgets. Personally I chalked it up to her having a bad stretch, people have those sometimes and I think a bit of forgiveness and moving on might be in order.

Forums are not venues for unrestricted freedom of speech, the decision ultimately lies with the owner and is handled by his/her proxies. But members do have the right to question these proxies and see what others think, there is nothing wrong with this thread.

I couldn't care less who Bob bans and rarely post here these days so from a person who isn't on his list of 8 my take is this: Bob has committed several serious flaws when it comes to being a moderator. I've been around here and other forums for a long time and been involved behind the scenes in forums much larger than summitpost. Moderators should avoid the appearance of bias. Moderators should not post multi page ramblings justifying their actions. Moderators previously involved in other forums that now appear to be a source of contention should distance themselves from those forums. Words like cancer belong with words like Nazi in that they should be restricted to Nazis and people having cancer. Strong words leave lasting impressions that the owner of the words may not realize.

I've liked Bob's posts since he came here and agreed with several of his decisions but my suggestion would be to just moderate and stop justifying it, it weakens your position and draws more negativity towards you. People who agree with the moderation will back Bob, people who don't will be more inclined to dislike him because of his long posts. I do think Guyzo is right that the number of altered threads is excessive. I understand mods need to walk a fine line but over modding a forum can make it turn stagnant quickly.

That's an unbiased two cents, however harshly you want to mod do it quietly and stop feeling the need to justify yourself and if a thread you are involved in gets chopped or moved have another uninvolved mod do it.

The question Bob should ask himself is whether his actions to date have polarized the membership enough to prevent him from ever getting rest because apparently modding this board is a real PITA.

twoshuzz wrote:I'll say this: I know Guy not at all, but I do know of him. Dude was push'n it looooong before you were even a thought. He's provided more great beta and helped more SP members and others than your 17 y/o pimply ass can even begin to fathom. Regardless of his opinion, show some respect, flea. Also, from my perspective gained from SP and elsewhere, he's a pretty cool person. I'm also certain he can spank your bottom both on rock or over his knee. At this point, I'd say you deserve both.

Sounds like a desperate plea to 'get off my lawn'

Good morning all....

After sleeping on it, I was wrong to call out Bob specifically. He is trying to do his best, after all. But I think some of the Mods on this site do a good job especially the ones who are low key.

But Bob did stand in the middle of the target, so to speak, by announcing the grand fact that "HE" split up the thread and moved some of it to places "HE" deemed appropriate.

That my friends, ruffled my tail feathers big time.

So I lashed out at him because it would be stupid to have included all the elfs....

So Bob to you I will say I am sorry.

I find it amazing that some people just seem to "speed read" what gets written down, and they form an opinion and come back fighting mad.

I do love SP though and its DECLINE is ongoing and continues at a more rapid pace.

As a member I am distressed at this fact. SP is the only site on the web that combines: International Mountaineering, rockclimbing, and pretty hardcore adventuring of all types.

The trip reports allow me to "GO" to places I reckon I will never be able to visit. The interaction with the people is the best part of it all.

I wish to thank all who have responded in a coherent manner, I don't mind harsh criticism I have thick skin.

The bomb throwers responded just as I expected.

And FYI.... workmanflock is not a troll, I know not who he is, but thank you for your well written, thoughtful post. We could use more of that brand of writing around here.

Got to go climbing now.

Late

PS To CSUMARMOT... keep climbing, it will reward you far more than you can imagine right now.

Guyzo wrote: PS To CSUMARMOT... keep climbing, it will reward you far more than you can imagine right now.

Thank you, point well taken