knoback wrote:I'll admit I'm lazy and don't want to get into it with person after person by down voting or leaving comments. I also recognize the value of the hikers and scramblers - you actually have half a chance of finding climbs using this site based on their input. Have you seen a 'climbers trail'? It goes straight up the hill and the guys who made it are gonna be just as good at telling you how to get there. And yet, the volume is pretty overwhelming. Personal responsibility only goes so far and culture does count for something. Just want to keep the technical climbing sector from getting totally drowned and suggesting it might need a dam given the trend.

Perhaps there is just a difference in perspective. This page:
http://www.summitpost.org/castle-peaks-mojave/487688
Was initially downvoted, because it was not sufficiently detailed. I did know several people who got lost trying to navigate the many washes and confusing terrain. So we upgraded the info, and everyone seemed happy (I hope). Out here, just finding the roads is a big challenge.

I've seen quite a few climber trails in Red Rock and near the Hood. They are usually very short, often eroded, and often have lots of garbage (Cat-in-the-hat has lots of human poops nearby). Out here (perhaps not where you live) the way to the common climbs is usually very obvious and requires little route-finding, skill, or stamina. But there are a very few climber routes in the backcountry of Red Rock, that do require some skill and routefinding just to get to the real climb (e.g. Piute Wall; some are bolted). And I've never seen a single rock climber back there, while I've been many times. Hard approaches are usually not popular with folks who want to spend the day with gear and 5.10.

Time and time again, I find slings set up by rockclimbers to descend routes that I simply downclimb. A tiny bit of extra knowledge is sometimes all one needs to turn what rockclimbers regard as a technical route, into a scramble. At one time climbers had bolted the walk-off for Bridge Mountain. There is a sling on the east side of Gunsight Notch, to allow rappel over a chockstone; yet looking down, you will find a narrow cave that climbs under the chockstone. There is usually a rope at the bottom of Rainbow Wall, to allow climbers to get over the smooth falls to the bottom of the climb; yet there is a simple 4th-class crack nearby, that bypasses this stretch completely. If I chose to describe these routes I would mention the scrambling solutions in detail. But I choose to describe very few routes.

borutbk wrote:

knoback wrote:... Just want to keep the technical climbing sector from getting totally drowned and suggesting it might need a dam given the trend.

I was tempted to collaborate in a geographical way, adding mountains, hikes, approaches, huts, trailheads, etc, in addition to 'technical' climbs. And I thought that editing other people's stuff would be easier. Maybe I had more of a Wiki approach in mind (though that can get very complicated and time demanding as well). Now I guess a dam is better. So I built one (a list), and will go on editing that. Something like adding chapters to a library instead of adding books. This may sound confusing, but let's say I'll stick to adding some routes. The next ones I'll add in winter, when the ice comes in. Too bad - I was trying to enjoy the fact that this site 'is' about people, not mountains. I'll go back to the facts. Library... voting useless..

Nobody forces you to read stuff that merely describes trails, and nobody forces you to read the "approach section." It's that simple. Nobody forces you to contribute to SP; it sounds like knockback might be happier putting stuff on supertopo or mountainproject.

borutbk wrote:... but there are problems with militant and dogmatic Hykerz that feel diminished cause they are lesser heroes.

Oh, I don't know, Borut, I have actually never thought that any hiking or climbing I did made me a hero at all.

[Edit: commentary on Borut's heroism deleted]

Anyway, this is Summitpost, not "Routepost" or "Chestthumpost." It's broadly about mountains, and people are going to put up a variety of things. Personally, I like almost all of it, and what I don't like, I don't bother with.

On a more positive note, for my money, this is perfection:
http://www.summitpost.org/stogi/262255 Vid's done a nice mountain page with the trail/scramble route incorporated there. Borut's done route pages for moderate routes with the perfect amount of detail, no personal aggrandizement, just what you need to know to make you want to go there and spend a few days climbing on that mountain!

knoback wrote:Whoa! This is getting into the old relative merits argument, which is not productive. Rather than rehash that, consider: Does West Face Trail belong with the other items with which it is listed? Do you think that kind of 'lumping' discourages technical route submissions (I do)? (Everything in West Face Trail, except for cannibalism and the use of pepper spray, reflects actual events witnessed at the Tower)

I rarely see the stuff that other people complain about; and if I do, it just washes over me. The only irritation I've noted, is that when I search on a popular mountain, there may be 50 trip reports before I find the mountain page. But if there are ten routes under one mountain page, and 5 are for trails, why should that bother anyone? The hierarchy sorts things out. It shouldn't take more than 2 seconds for cllmberz (even militant ones) to realize they can hit the back button and look elsewhere.

People have widely varied interests, all lumped into summitpost. Personally, I am most interested in getting to the top of a mountain. If that requires some low class 5, so be it. But for me, the most interesting mountains are remote, and require lots of planning and cross-country travel. There is something especially satisfying (to me) about 9000' of elevation gain and 25 trackless miles at the end of the day, and all the planning that goes into making sure there is enough water and food. I realize that isn't what floats everybody's boats; but you can see why it might be good to know everything about the terrain if you want to pack as much as you can into 15 hours.

I would just ask that all realize there are different interests. The charter of summitpost is broad.

knoback wrote:Why do they prefer to use Mountain Project even though the format and standard there is clearly inferior?

Because they are not. Quips aside, MP's format is designed for climbers and is currently much better for climbers than SP's. The database is much larger for the US. (Literally thousands of routes just in my "backyard".) There are nifty features like the mini-guide printing option, and so on. SP prides itself on having higher-quality pages: mainly more information and more pictures per page. However, if you eliminate redundancies and account for the extremely useful comments on MP (vs. the few and not so useful comments on SP) it's not clear which site gives you more information for a route that both describe.

borutbk wrote:'Mixed' is a type of ax/crampon specific technique or not?

Originally 'mixed' referred to terrain where one climbed rock, ice, and snow. By extension, it referred to climbing mixed terrain while wearing crampons (with or without axes). Today I hear a lot of climbers improperly refer to dry tooling as mixed climbing. Eventually this improper use is likely to prevail. The lack of a "dry tooling" label on SP certainly pushes in that direction.

borutbk wrote:Boulder, Top Rope and Sport Climbing are features that do suggest the description of single pitch climbs.

Top rope for sure, sport not quite, and boulder definitely not.

Not trying to split hairs here, or at least not only, but to point out that solving taxonomy issues requires some work and so does enforcing policies. Where's the boundary between hiking and scrambling or scrambling and technical climbing? If someone labels a Himalayan trek as "sport climbing" what do you do?

borutbk wrote:As far as 'Mixed' is understood , I prefer the tooling meaning, btw.

To me it's just another malapropism gone mainstream, but it doesn't matter much. The point is that 'mixed' means different things to different people.

As for cramming all routes of a crag in one page, it's a poor structuring principle. The right solution is the one used by Mountain Project. Failing that, there's always cut-and-paste.

Yeah, why don't you guys get jobs? You are spending too much time here. (levity)

Ah knockback, through the magic of the internet, you tar me by a sophistic association with people who are now socially unacceptable. You should be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize! Here's a better analogy.

I worked at a place where theoreticians had single offices, and experimentalists got double (shared) offices, on the theory that experimentalists also had lab spaces. But we all did theory and experiments, and all had lab space, so our boss instituted a lottery. What could be more fair than a lottery?

But several people didn't like the fact that they didn't win the lottery. They sued that they were more in need of single offices. The arguments took on a fervor! I deserve more, because what I do is more important. My intricate mental processes are strained by having to listen to extraneous conversations, which the single-office people ignored in their double-office tenure. Don't dare ask me to put up with the tolerances of these other people. The mere fact that many of them previously tolerated single offices, shows that the proper social hierarchy should put them back there, and give us their spaces. You must give in to my needs, or lose me! Well many of these superior beings left on their own; some left when their funding dwindled to 0, because after all, they had to spend so much time focusing on minutia.

Gesu Cristo, this is a tempest in a teacup.

Although I see the true sentiments and intent of the OP, I have to admit that I gave up on the frustrations which Knoback shares here, years ago.

SP has become just as Facebook, a social gather of sorts of folks from everyday backgrounds that head up and out to the hills on the weekends. Most (90% or more for that matter) are not hardcore dedicated technical climbers, regardless the discipline. Most are either "Hikers" or weekend "Peak Baggers" that may at times carry a rope (30m), harness, rappel device and a locker with some runner material in order to accommodate a rappel or two with their 30m cord. Adding to the tatter pollution that is growing in the mountains. Only to return from their adventure to add a "Route" page of their hike or Class 3 scramble. But then that is what most are only capable of accomplishing here. Good, bad or indifferent, that is the reality mix of today's "Climbing/Mountaineering" crowd in general. Not only here on SP, but throughout the mountaineering community in general. Hell, with the birth and implementation of "Via Ferrata", these folks can now claim themselves to be "Technical Climbers".

Anyhow, most already know how I feel. More importantly, it is sad that true classy dudes like Knoback with some super good beta on REAL ROUTES could not shake off their well founded frustrations, sift through the growing piles of chaff and just continue to add to the well balanced but very limited wheat that does exist here on SP.

Truly sorry to see ya go Knoback. Hope you reconsider and get your ass back here.

The Chief wrote:SP has become just as Facebook, a social gather of sorts of folks from everyday backgrounds that head up and out to the hills on the weekends. Most (90% or more for that matter) are not hardcore dedicated technical climbers, regardless the discipline. Most are either "Hikers" or weekend "Peak Baggers" that may at times carry a rope (30m), harness, rappel device and a locker with some runner material in order to accommodate a rappel or two with their 30m cord. Adding to the tatter pollution that is growing in the mountains. Only to return from their adventure to add a "Route" page of their hike or Class 3 scramble. But then that is what most are only capable of accomplishing here. Good, bad or indifferent, that is the reality mix of today's "Climbing/Mountaineering" crowd in general. Not only here on SP, but throughout the mountaineering community in general. Hell, with the birth and implementation of "Via Ferrata", these folks can now claim themselves to be "Technical Climbers".

Chief, I know your a badass and everything, but hear me out. Do you know what the cool thing about climbing is? The fact that there are many different types! Not every climber has to be freeing 5.11 multi-pitch trad. Thats cool and I wish I could do the climbs like that. But the thing is, I can't and not everyone is on the same level and wont be. If your out there enjoying the mountains, you are still doing better then a vast majority of the population in the U.S. and the world. There is nothing in SP saying that all the pages you post have to be technical climbs. If that was the case, it would just be another Mountain Project. The cool thing about SP is that there are many different styles of climbing represented by a variety of different climbers worldwide. The best climbers are the ones having the most fun and that can be had by doing Via Ferreta, bouldering, trad climbing, class 3 scrambling w/ a 30m rope, sport climbing, ice climbing, mountaineering, and etc. Climbing, like all extreme sports and sports in general is dynamic. Get over yourself and learn to accept those who aren't as badass as yourself.

Alex Wood wrote:

The Chief wrote:SP has become just as Facebook, a social gather of sorts of folks from everyday backgrounds that head up and out to the hills on the weekends. Most (90% or more for that matter) are not hardcore dedicated technical climbers, regardless the discipline. Most are either "Hikers" or weekend "Peak Baggers" that may at times carry a rope (30m), harness, rappel device and a locker with some runner material in order to accommodate a rappel or two with their 30m cord. Adding to the tatter pollution that is growing in the mountains. Only to return from their adventure to add a "Route" page of their hike or Class 3 scramble. But then that is what most are only capable of accomplishing here. Good, bad or indifferent, that is the reality mix of today's "Climbing/Mountaineering" crowd in general. Not only here on SP, but throughout the mountaineering community in general. Hell, with the birth and implementation of "Via Ferrata", these folks can now claim themselves to be "Technical Climbers".

Chief, I know your a badass and everything, but hear me out. Do you know what the cool thing about climbing is? The fact that there are many different types! Not every climber has to be freeing 5.11 multi-pitch trad. Thats cool and I wish I could do the climbs like that. But the thing is, I can't and not everyone is on the same level and wont be. If your out there enjoying the mountains, you are still doing better then a vast majority of the population in the U.S. and the world. There is nothing in SP saying that all the pages you post have to be technical climbs. If that was the case, it would just be another Mountain Project. The cool thing about SP is that there are many different styles of climbing represented by a variety of different climbers worldwide. The best climbers are the ones having the most fun and that can be had by doing Via Ferreta, bouldering, trad climbing, class 3 scrambling w/ a 30m rope, sport climbing, ice climbing, mountaineering, and etc. Climbing, like all extreme sports and sports in general is dynamic.

Ah, that was the point of my post.

So you now can figure out who indeed needs to "get over themselves".






Oh, btw, Climbing for some of us is not a sport. Rather a way of life.

The Chief wrote:

Alex Wood wrote:

The Chief wrote:SP has become just as Facebook, a social gather of sorts of folks from everyday backgrounds that head up and out to the hills on the weekends. Most (90% or more for that matter) are not hardcore dedicated technical climbers, regardless the discipline. Most are either "Hikers" or weekend "Peak Baggers" that may at times carry a rope (30m), harness, rappel device and a locker with some runner material in order to accommodate a rappel or two with their 30m cord. Adding to the tatter pollution that is growing in the mountains. Only to return from their adventure to add a "Route" page of their hike or Class 3 scramble. But then that is what most are only capable of accomplishing here. Good, bad or indifferent, that is the reality mix of today's "Climbing/Mountaineering" crowd in general. Not only here on SP, but throughout the mountaineering community in general. Hell, with the birth and implementation of "Via Ferrata", these folks can now claim themselves to be "Technical Climbers".

Chief, I know your a badass and everything, but hear me out. Do you know what the cool thing about climbing is? The fact that there are many different types! Not every climber has to be freeing 5.11 multi-pitch trad. Thats cool and I wish I could do the climbs like that. But the thing is, I can't and not everyone is on the same level and wont be. If your out there enjoying the mountains, you are still doing better then a vast majority of the population in the U.S. and the world. There is nothing in SP saying that all the pages you post have to be technical climbs. If that was the case, it would just be another Mountain Project. The cool thing about SP is that there are many different styles of climbing represented by a variety of different climbers worldwide. The best climbers are the ones having the most fun and that can be had by doing Via Ferreta, bouldering, trad climbing, class 3 scrambling w/ a 30m rope, sport climbing, ice climbing, mountaineering, and etc. Climbing, like all extreme sports and sports in general is dynamic.

Ah, that was the point of my post.

So you now can figure out who indeed needs to "get over themselves".

I might be mistaken, but it sounded like you were belittling those who climb in a "less hardcore style". You make the " hikers" and " weekend peak baggers" sound like bad people. And then you say "that is what most are only capable of accomplishing here" when you refer to route and mountain pages that reflect that style of climbing. Not everyone has the time, money or the experience to climb like that and thats OKAY. Its okay to poke fun at other types of climbing and I do it, but what you do is just stupid and immature and its a reoccurring theme here in the forum. My statement still stands, get over yourself. Go ahead and tear me apart like you do to so many people on SP. I don't care.

You were mistaken.

We, the Technical Dudes, are the few here on SP. That was the point that I was attempting to share with Knoback and the frustration he exhibited in the OP.

Your "Route" pages are indeed exactly what Knoback was trying to point out in his OP, IMO. To us Tech Climbers, your "Hikes" are simply approaches to the "Real" routes in our world. No offense intended.

http://www.summitpost.org/limber-pine-creek/425942

http://www.summitpost.org/dollar-couloir/509108

http://www.summitpost.org/from-humber-p ... ide/449696

http://www.summitpost.org/deer-springs-trail/429995

The Chief wrote:You were mistaken.

We, the Technical Dudes, are the few here on SP. That was the point that I was attempting to share with Knoback and the frustration he exhibited in the OP.

Your "Route" pages are indeed exactly what Knoback was trying to point out in his OP, IMO. To us Tech Climbers, your "Hikes" are simply approaches to the "Real" routes in our world. No offense intended.

http://www.summitpost.org/limber-pine-creek/425942

http://www.summitpost.org/dollar-couloir/509108

http://www.summitpost.org/from-humber-p ... ide/449696

http://www.summitpost.org/deer-springs-trail/429995

Yes, we are few and far between, but this goes back to what I said before.."The fact that there are many different types! Not every climber has to be freeing 5.11 multi-pitch trad. Thats cool and I wish I could do the climbs like that. But the thing is, I can't and not everyone is on the same level and wont be. If your out there enjoying the mountains, you are still doing better then a vast majority of the population in the U.S. and the world" I didnt start technical climbing until recently. Before that, I really didn't have the means to do so. I didn't have friends or family who were into it. I didn't and still don't have my families support for my new lifestyle. So I started with what was accessible...and that was hiking. For many people, they are content with this and this is alright because everyone is different! If everyone was a technical climber then routes would be way overcrowded (as if they aren't already). For me, it took four years to achieve my goal of being able to do technical climbing. It was a long progress and by no means do I considered my journey as a climber over. Although I climb a decent amount, I still like to peak bag, hike, canyoneer and other things. My life is too short to just focus on one aspect of the outdoors. Those route pages you posted deserve a place here in summitpost IMO. They are a route up a mountain. This is what it says when you go to make a route page when you click on "Create Object"...."Route: All types of routes go here: technical rock climbs, ice climbs, trails, etc."

The main thing that I am trying to say is that this site hosts lots of awesome (and some not so awesome, but definitely more awesome) material on the mountains. You are making people who don't post technical climbing info sound like they are inferior to the "elite few". This is what irks me. For me, climbing is a lifestyle as well. But I address the fact that there are other types of climbers and non-climbers out there. Don't get your panties in a bunch when someone posts something that "isn't technical". Living the lifestyle is awesome, but go back to the roots of it. Having fun and pushing yourself while being outside is the reason why I do it and the reason why so many of my friends do it. Too many people "living the lifestyle" loose track of that and get to full of themselves. Climbers, hikers, and peak baggers both share a love of the outdoors. However, we all have different abilities and that fact needs to be recognized.

P.S. You forgot some more of my non-technical pages

http://www.summitpost.org/waterholes-canyon/716826

http://www.summitpost.org/mars-attacks-5-8/751043

http://www.summitpost.org/north-chutes/751140

http://www.summitpost.org/larry-canyon/708810

This thread is a bit pathetic and laughable, and is for sure a kind of "storm in a glass of water" as someone said.

I regret the departure of Knoblauch, as his contributions were certainly enhancing the quality of SP, but it is his own decision. If you can't support to coexist with others who have slightly different interests (hikers versus climbers), then it is better for you to leave.

I have however the feeling that summitpost.org has been slowly declining, and has been loosing a lot of its original attraction. I'm not joining the self-proclaimed "technical climbers" who despise arrogantly the "weekend hikers", but I do think that a website like SP needs some "star contributors" if it wants to keep some credibility. And, for sure, it's not the butterfly pictures and flat trail routes that will contribute to maintain this credibility. This will rather lead SP to a slow death… I do believe that we need some big walls epics, some Andean adventures, some alpine north faces and some Himalayan giants to keep SP attractive, whatever your personal interest might be. I have nothing against Sunday afternoon hill walking, but we need something additional to keep SP alive and prevent too much dilution of quality.

With regret I observed that many of the "best" contributors have either left or became virtually inactive, leaving most of the space to the butterfly collectors.

But the first ones to "blame" for this decline might not be the butterfly collectors themselves, but rather the "superhero climbers" who left the boat as their oversized ego did not allow them to tolerate weekend hikers standing next to them; others may have given too much importance to the voting system, and ended up frustrated to see poor contributions emerging to the top.

Who cares? In the end the search tool allows you to select what you're interested in. Just ignore the rest.


Anyway, I still regret the departure of Knoblauch, and the fact that SP is gradually loosing colour and attractiveness (IMHO). Maybe we need some kind of SP V3 to attract new contributors, but that's another topic…