Guyzo wrote:Good mornin

...<snip>...

I do love SP though and its DECLINE is ongoing and continues at a more rapid pace.

As a member I am distressed at this fact. SP is the only site on the web that combines: International Mountaineering, rockclimbing, and pretty hardcore adventuring of all types.

The trip reports allow me to "GO" to places I reckon I will never be able to visit. The interaction with the people is the best part of it all.

...

I totally agree with you that Summitpost is important, but I think the only way it will decline (more or less rapidly) is if serious users acting in good faith quit caring. I disagreed with you on this thread but I think you are coming from a position of integrity. I think Bob is too. I think recognizing that at the end of the day will stem the decline and create something better.

In my opinion, the decline you are talking about comes more from experienced members leaving than from policy/moderation changes. Old hands leave and a new batch of people has to learn how to balance "freedom of speech" with the requirements of a community that is too thin-skinned to accept anarchy. I guess I just think people are trying.

No Bob Sihler needs to stay! He is honestly trying to make this site better. I do get a little edgy whenever deletions occur. At least he gave a warning, unlike some jerkoff that deleted me and my contris without warning due to a "misunderstanding"

It is Dadndave that needs to go. He has been the dumbass that deletes half of the stuff I post-I'd produce examples but they've been deleted. This backs up what Truchas said earlier about elves giving preferential treatment to people they like. Early in the life of off-route I made a statement that was a little acerbic- this was followed by a post bashing me. My post got canned, the post that followed stood. Fuck that DND you are no better than Bob Burd and DaveK. Ok Dad, I feel better now, I am sure you'll delete this.

How many Elves are there? Is it 3? Would the answer to this issue be, say have 5 or even 7 Elves and then require a majority vote with their opinions posted why they are taking the action and post the opposing opinions as well? I know too much bureaucracy, but maybe better than what is currently the protcol.

No matter where you go it's unavoidable, politics that is... At least in the main forums of SP it's entertaining.

Bob is perhaps the most thoughtful moderator and dedicated person to this site I have ever seen. I can't imagine it's an easy job and of course it's impossible to make everyone happy. I for one would make out with Bob and I'm not even 100% ghey.

A job well done Bobby!

Guy, you're kinda cute too though...

Guyzo wrote:(you don't know just WHAT was said because the Mods can delete things that make em look bad and when you look at a topic that has had edits/deleted its not the same thread) So the mods had a hand in the thread drift, then they move it and kill it.

Even though I think the moderators really do their best, I don't like when a post is deleted, and then a moderator bashes the writer of the post - and there's only the moderator's "truth" left. Deleting posts is perfectly ok, but I suggest delete the post and do not comment.

Another thing that really annoys me, is that when I started reading this thread, it's Site Feedback, serious part of the site, I suddenly see my name.
Why is someone allowed to make an outright lie about another member, who hadn't participated in this thread?
I am TIRED of this shit - outright lies, backstabbing, derogatory comments, you name it, etc.
It doesn't matter if it's a small or big matter. Leave me out of it.
Fucking leave me alone. I've had it.
WHY IS THAT POST ALLOWED TO REMAIN????

Aaaaa, maybe this is a good time to inject some humor into this thread.

In my opinion, Bob IS a MAN, and he knows how to fight his own battles.



And, as for a GOOD candidate FOR an expert SP-MOD, I choose this man :

Just in case anyone wants to say my name, I have now posted in this thread.

You can call me anything you want, but just don't call me late for dinner.

Chad !

OK, I'm done with the humor. Back to the regularly scheduled program...

Who is this Lolli person?

Do what you have to do Bob. No complaints here.

I gotta give Tazz half a prop. It is very difficult to apologize espceially in a forum such as this. She stepped up.

That being said, I still hate her for ruining Hottest Chicks Alive thread.

"Honey, I'm still in the bathroom shaving, for crying out loud !!!"

Guyzo-- Thank you for your last post. Apology accepted, and I apologize for being a little rough on you about a month ago in another thread. I believe you and I have very different views of what is most important on this site, so there is no point in rehashing things. It doesn't make me right or you, either; it just is what it is. I still think splitting the thread and trying to save the good parts was better than sending the whole thing to Off-Route, and it was going there, well before the "idiot" posts by me and Bob Burd. But I have listened. All I can promise is this: going forward, I will try harder to distinguish between serious thread drift and true train wreck before splitting, moving, or deleting a thread. Peace.

workmanflock-- I appreciate your post. Constructive criticism is fine. Regarding bias and harsh terminology, yes, I agree that they are generally bad things. For reasons already explained, I felt I had little choice recently. Regarding your suggestion about moderating without explaining, I will probably move that way; you are not the first to suggest it, and some of the others have been current and past moderators. It will be hard for me to do because I do believe it is fair to explain to members, even those who make trouble, the reasoning behind actions and policies, and it will be hard for me to retreat into the ivory tower as a result. It may make me less of a lightning rod, but it will not solve the problem, for there will just be a resumption of posts and threads about the conspiratorial elves, just as it used to be. And I think Guyzo and I at least can agree that you're not a troll, for I know for a fact you're not.

Lolli-- Because of the nature of it, this thread is receiving extremely limited moderation. Yesterday, I personally asked the other elves to do any and all moderation so that there would be no appearance of my trying to control the topic in my favor. I did delete a vulgar attack post by an off-site troll, but that's the only kind of intervention I'll do here-- no editing or deleting legitimate members' posts. What the others do is entirely up to them.

Neophite-- I once proposed an idea like yours back in the waning days of PnP, way before I was a moderator, though it was restricted just to banning and deleting people. The idea has some merit, but I see at least two big problems with it: first, every moderator is in a different time zone, so it would be a very slow process discussing relatively minor decisions such as deleting a post, and second, although we are not always in 100% agreement on things, if we were to publicly share who stands where, that would encourage some people to game the system by playing to the perceived sympathetic side, much as a kid will go to the parent more likely to say "Yes."

To all members-- I have said that I have made mistakes, and I know I will make more. But as nancyhands (who might become the first member ever banned for sexual harassment of an elf ) said, I have a deep love for this site, and it translates into two basic things for me as a moderator: a wish to encourage a culture of quality regarding site content, and a wish to do what I can to protect members from unprovoked harassment. As I've said before, spray away, call each other libs and cons to your heart's delight, and make yourselves look like fools, but please don't crap on each other as people. That applies to all members; it is not a green light for people to crap on "problem members" with impunity, as one member learned two weeks ago after a second personal attack on a person who doesn't get much sympathy here but is nevertheless equally entitled to protection from abuse. There may be less patience for provocation by certain people, but it doesn't mean there is more patience for provocation of said people.

Okay, now it's to a nice Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale and a cheery Cormac McCarthy novel I go, and, after that, to workmanflock's advice to dwell in the ivory tower.

Cheers.

(Edit-- grammar)

The irony of this whole thread is that by criticizing Bob's methods, there is an unintentional depositing of an extra layer of demands, restrictions, and and regulations. Guy's initial proposition for minimal moderator interference, if implemented, would take the form of another regulation and modification of behavior and therefore someone's freedom of expression would be restricted. If this is the end result, the initial sentiments that favor the least amount of disruption is somewhat undermined. Rules can be a little bit of a slippery slope especially since the basis for many of them rest on interpretative grounds.

I personally find it amusing when moderators show some personality, it keeps the forums less artificial, less robotic, and more lively. There was no loss with the slicing of the thread in question, as the stuff sent to off route was mostly junk. Although I'll admit, it did shift things to a more somber mood, which may affect individuals sense of spontaneity and overall mischief.

The more this site manages to replicate realistic dynamics of interaction the better, and realistic dynamics of social interaction involve a fundamental element of unfairness, and the best we can do is shit in our diapers in protest.

This is just my take on it, forgive me if my feeble brain cannot process the politics of it all.